Tree in the woods

[elliebean]

Colors, on the other hand, don't exist until they are seen.

[notself]

I do sem to remeber this question before. Regardless I still think it's silly. Just because there is no witness does not mean something didn't occur.

Your house catches on fire but no one is around to see it did it still burn down. Yes. A lack of a witness does not change an events occurance. Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

I think we are confusing sound waves with audible sound.  Sound waves exist even if no one is around, but audible sound requires an ear and a brain.

Sound is the quickly varying pressure wave within a medium.We usually mean audible sound, which is the sensation (as detected by the ear) of very small rapid changes in the air pressure above and below a static value. This “static” value is atmospheric pressure (about 100,000 Pascals) which does nevertheless vary slowly, as shown on a barometer. Associated with the sound pressure wave is a flow of energy.

Information provided by: http://www.decibels.demon.co.uk

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[Tanker]

I do sem to remeber this question before. Regardless I still think it's silly. Just because there is no witness does not mean something didn't occur.

Your house catches on fire but no one is around to see it did it still burn down. Yes. A lack of a witness does not change an events occurance. Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

I think we are confusing sound waves with audible sound.  Sound waves exist even if no one is around, but audible sound requires an ear and a brain.

Sound is the quickly varying pressure wave within a medium.We usually mean audible sound, which is the sensation (as detected by the ear) of very small rapid changes in the air pressure above and below a static value. This “static” value is atmospheric pressure (about 100,000 Pascals) which does nevertheless vary slowly, as shown on a barometer. Associated with the sound pressure wave is a flow of energy.

Information provided by: http://www.decibels.demon.co.uk

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We? So you mean the imperial we? Unless you are trying to claim we are both mistaken which would be wierd if you're trying to correct me. LOL

So you are trying to say that without something to register the sound (ie; ears) it never happened? According too your reply sound waves don't equal sound. So with my original example if no one feels the heat or sees the flame your house should be fine?

How about a star 100 light years away went supernova 50 years ago. Is it still a star or a rapidly expanding ball of gas. Answer: expanding ball of gas we just don't know it yet. Just because we don't witness an event (tree falling) or it's effect (sound) does not mean the event or effects never happened.

[notself]

We? So you mean the imperial we? Unless you are trying to claim we are both mistaken which would be wierd if you're trying to correct me. LOL

So you are trying to say that without something to register the sound (ie; ears) it never happened? According too your reply sound waves don't equal sound. So with my original example if no one feels the heat or sees the flame your house should be fine?

How about a star 100 light years away went supernova 50 years ago. Is it still a star or a rapidly expanding ball of gas. Answer: expanding ball of gas we just don't know it yet. Just because we don't witness an event (tree falling) or it's effect (sound) does not mean the event or effects never happened.

I meant that neither of us had defined what we meant by sound.  I meant audible sound using the ear.  It appears that you are using sound (pressure) waves.

Pressure waves exist whether there is an "experience" of the wave or not.  Audible sound requires an ear.

[G-Roll]

Audible sound requires an ear

why would sound require an ear? sound requires nothing.
your ear requires sound to work, to be useful. i doubt sound could care less if you heard it nor not.  

[elliebean]

But if no one is there to step in it, does it still smell bad?

[Faradaympp]

This thread has gotten a few replies so to make things interesting here's what I reasoned. Enjoy

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

Logically, it should, the laws of physics should not cease to take effect due to lack of an observer. This is, however, not a new idea, ever since Erwin Schrödinger proposed his dual wave function theory there has been a doubt; does an event require an observer to confirm its existence? Fortunately the problem was solved, he theorized an experiment where a cat was placed in a box with a machine that had a 50% chance of breaking a bottle of poison, his theory stipulated that you could not know the state of the cat until some outside observer confirmed it and that until its state was verified it would exist in both states at once. This caused outrage in the science community, Schrödinger himself attempted to eliminate this problem. Eventually a solution was found, you could determine the state of the cat without visual confirmation, an object’s existence is determined by its interaction with other matter and energy. Therefore the instant the cat touches the box were struck by a cosmic ray or a subatomic particle its state would be confirmed without an actual witness. Therefore a tree, which comprises many millions of particles, can verify its own existence, the instant it has any interaction with the wind or the ground it will produce a predictable physical reaction. Furthermore, the assumption that events require intelligent confirmation is arrogant and egotistical; the only way a particle’s existence could be called into question is in a complete zero energy vacuum completely devoid of matter.

[Sophus]

Think of it this way: We say in space there is no sound. What is meant by that is, without molecules in the air, vibrations cannot travel. So naturally, given a witness floating about in space with fully functioning ears, they would not hear any sound due to the environment he/she's in. Place him or her in that forest and they do, obviously, hear that tree fall.

However, if you define it this way

"Sound is a traveling wave which is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas, composed of frequencies within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard, or the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations,"

then no, the tree falling does not make a sound since it is not heard.
It's all tricky semantics that distracts from understanding the real concepts trying to be communicated. We needn't be so pedantic by trying to stick to one definition of sound because, as demonstrated, it has been used to convey different concepts.

In neither case is an observer required for the event itself to exist.

[curiosityandthecat]

In neither case is an observer required for the event itself to exist.

Damn that pesky observer effect.  

[Sophus]

Damn that pesky observer effect.  lol I dunno, Schrödinger's Cat is a little different from this... no? The whole observer effect is misleading after all. If Bohr and Heisenberg had used the term "measurements made by inanimate instruments" rather than "observer" we wouldn't have such confusion being created by the New Agers. When I had used the term "observer" previously, I was referring to a conscious being with functioning senses.

[Spatiality]

This is a question which we all learned to answer to while we were developing our cognitive ability's at the age of 2 months. When a object is hidden, we learn it is still there instead of it simply just disappearing. I do not doubt that the world still goes when I am asleep. There for, things make sounds when I am not present.

Another answer is: Other animals besides humans also have the ability to capture and translate sound waves. Whether you believe it must make sound waves only or must it be heard, it is a forest, and there are animals.

[Heretical Rants]

I was under the impression that, under the observer effect, anything could act as the observer?

So in the case of the cat, the observation takes place when the geiger counter goes off, killing the cat.

[AlP]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, except for a bunch of owls, mice, squirrels and other forest dwelling animals, does it make a sound? I think for every tree that falls there will be critters around to hear it.

Lets take this to the next level!

If an asteroid lands on the Moon and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I know there's a vacuum but sound waves will still travel through the ground.

[Sophus]

The “observers” of the observer effect are not anything that requires a consciousness. Rather they are the measurements of tools, used back in the Copenhagen interpretation, and still today demonstrate it is not that we, as human beings, can shape reality with our minds, as it is that the universe creates it's own reality from moment to moment, of which we are a part.  A classic example of an observer influencing the phenomenon being observed is that of a mercury thermometer which absorbs thermal energy while measuring a temperature. The observer effect deals with scientific accuracy of such records.

[Dretlin]

Unless the tree is falling in a vacume there will always be a sound.

This very well could be the beginning of an entirely different topic. Or a very interesting experiment of pushing large objects over in a vacuum jar.