Scientists vs. Animal Rights Extremists

[Ultima22689]

You should probably make the switch, you sound like a religious person anyway, to be honest with you. Of course i'm sensing someone is probably trolling again. If you aren't, why did you become an atheist in the first place?

You know I think I became one out of anger more than really any real reason I guess. Yeah there is some kooky stuff in the bible but I think the overall message is great. And I do feel a sense of peace reading it. Maybe God's plan was so above us we don't understand why he would have his people slaughter others. I don't know, but I do feel more at home with religion.

Not trolling, and I know we're off-topic, I'm sorry.

I just don't see what's wrong with experimenting on animals and Will didn't to a certain extent either. Sorry dude, I did miss that post.

I see, you have some serious thinking to do man and I hope whatever you decide it makes you happy because it seems like you aren't. Don't let your anger rule your mind, if you do it will only lead to your destruction.

I don't think anyone here truly thinks it's ok to test on animals and as much as I hate to say up till now and for awhile longer it was/is necessary, the sooner we perfect the ability to grow organs the quicker we end animal experimentation.

[Big Mac]

No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

Atheist simply means you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. You can be a gay-not-accepting, uber-conservative, quiet-home-loving, moral absolutist atheist so long as you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. The afterlife thing is a bit of a gray area, but I suppose as long as you don't attribute or associate the afterlife to a supernatural being of any kind, I suppose you're still an atheist.

Anyway, I don't like that we have to experiment on animals for anything, it happens to offend my personal (evil?) morals, but I recognize its importance.

I'm starting to wonder if there may just be deity who is guiding us. I really feel pretty empty in this not believing bit. It's like there's almost nothing to feel worried about because in the end it doesn't really matter. I hate to sound emo here but honestly, what's the point of it all? Then when you put a god in the equation it seems to be more filling for your life, at least to me.

I don't like the idea of animals suffering either, but if it must be done it must be done.

[LoneMateria]

No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

I don't believe in a universal "evil" because I don't believe in evil.  Evil is a perspective relative to the people.  People in the bible time thought unbelievers were evil and it was a good thing to kill them, just like homosexuals and anyone else who didn't subscribe to their brand of faith.  Its all about perspective.  Just because you are more conservative then others don't mean you are more like a religious person.  

I too hope i'm wrong and there is an afterlife but I'm pretty sure it's wishful thinking.  I can only live as long as the human race remembers me.  Metaphorically of course.  Since I want to do whats in the best interest of our race so I need to do, or be a part of, something worthy of being remembered.  If i'm wrong about the afterlife then I will have a surprise and my journey is only truly beginning.  If i'm right then I need to make sure my life counts on Earth.

I can't make myself believe in a concept that doesn't make sense.  I cannot sacrifice reason and logic to wishful thinking ^_^.  If like you said you became an atheist out of anger then you need to explore many religions and if it leads you to a belief in a deity then so be it.  As long as it's an honest seeking of truth then no one can be mad at you and you can't be mad at yourself.

[Will]

I'm starting to wonder if there may just be deity who is guiding us. I really feel pretty empty in this not believing bit. It's like there's almost nothing to feel worried about because in the end it doesn't really matter. I hate to sound emo here but honestly, what's the point of it all? Then when you put a god in the equation it seems to be more filling for your life, at least to me.

It's hard to tell when you're being serious. I'm going to err on the side of caution and assume you're being honest.

The idea that there's a point is something that was instilled in you when you were very young. "It's all part of God's plan!" they'd tell you when bad things happened. That taught you, erroneously, that there's some sort of overarching meaning to life or to the universe or something. That's not how it works, and because that's not how it works you were living your life according to a lie. The truth, the real truth, is that the universe most likely  is as it appears, but that doesn't mean you live a life without meaning. The true meaning of your life is something you get to discover and explore yourself. Maybe the meaning of your life is falling in love with a beautiful woman, having a few kids, and living in a house with a white picket fence with a respectable career and a muscle car in the garage. Maybe your meaning of life is to have a close group of friends to furiously debate with about everything from science to politics to philosophy. Maybe your meaning comes from teaching young people, preparing the next generation for the world. Each of these can provide a rich and fulfilling existence, something worthy of your efforts and devotion, and something that will give you back something so much more real than a mythological creator.

For me, it's obviously being a regional moderator on a great forum.  

[Big Mac]

Well I mean I think a lot of the stories in the bible are meant to be symbolic like Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden. Even Job is recognized by Catholics and Jews as a fictional account to show that faith in god is important even in dark times. I don't know, I'm at a crossroads religiously. Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

[LoneMateria]

Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Why?

[Big Mac]

Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Why?

I don't know, it just seems very empty.

[Ultima22689]

No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

Atheist simply means you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. You can be a gay-not-accepting, uber-conservative, quiet-home-loving, moral absolutist atheist so long as you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. The afterlife thing is a bit of a gray area, but I suppose as long as you don't attribute or associate the afterlife to a supernatural being of any kind, I suppose you're still an atheist.

Anyway, I don't like that we have to experiment on animals for anything, it happens to offend my personal (evil?) morals, but I recognize its importance.

I'm starting to wonder if there may just be deity who is guiding us. I really feel pretty empty in this not believing bit. It's like there's almost nothing to feel worried about because in the end it doesn't really matter. I hate to sound emo here but honestly, what's the point of it all? Then when you put a god in the equation it seems to be more filling for your life, at least to me.

I don't like the idea of animals suffering either, but if it must be done it must be done.

Well let me use myself for an example here, i'll explain myself and how i maintain such strong optimism most of the time. I clearly don't believe in God obviously, on that 1-7 scale I  consider myself a 6 and so i'm pretty sure God doesn't exist even though I can't prove it and go about my life assuming he doesn't. I don't worry about death, I don't intend to die(sounds crazy, I know) but if I do then oh well, if there is an afterlife i'll cross that bridge when I get there, I worry about what's going on and now what the future could be and try to do as much good in the world as I can. Focusing on the idea that I might just be dead when(if) I die will just make me feel sad so I don't focus on it, I'm more interested in what's going on now and the great innovation headed our way. If I die and there is an after life the odds of it being the christian/Muslim/Jewish God is so unlikely considering they have no more proof than any other religion i'm sure i'm good. Hell, this higher power and after life could be something that no human has ever thought of before. So cheer up dude, i'm assuming you are a young bright person since you mentioned you were in college earlier or were recently in college, you have plenty more years before you ever have to worry about dying and if you try to be more open minded death may be a thing of the past. Don't let the negative things in the world get you down. Atheism isn't about "YOU DIE, IT'S THE BITTER END!" It's about making the best of what we have and forging a better future for mankind via logic, reason and science.

[Will]

Well I mean I think a lot of the stories in the bible are meant to be symbolic like Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden. Even Job is recognized by Catholics and Jews as a fictional account to show that faith in god is important even in dark times. I don't know, I'm at a crossroads religiously. Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

If I may:
- The Garden of Eden tells a story where God created individuals which had no concept of ethics or morality, then asked them not to do something which provides them with an understanding of morality and ethics because it was wrong. The individuals, not understanding the request and being tempted by a third party, indulged in that thing and were then aware of ethics. This represents a logical paradox. The moral of the story is incredibly important because it speaks about the nature of religion: religion will tell you that you're wrong for doing things that people have been doing for millennia without any moral hangups. You will, of course, eventually do these things anyway because they're a normal part of human behavior, but you'll be punished by the strict dogma of religion because that's how they control you.
- Noah's Ark tells a story of a pious family and a vengeful, genocidal God. God, not being happy with the people he created and that he could just as easily change with the power of the Holy Spirit, demands that a particularly pious follower, Noah, undertake an exhaustive and needless construction project in order to house an absurdity; the idea is that an ark could be created by one man and his family within their lifetimes large enough to fit two of every species on the planet, the idea of course being that diversity in a gene pool isn't necessary and having a male and female of a species is more than enough to create a new population. God then carries out a hateful attack on the planet, murdering in cold blood millions of innocent (well, guilty in the eyes of a murderer) people while saving only the most pious along with a biological nightmare. The moral of the story is simple: do what you think God wants or you and everyone you love will die. Also, a male and female of a given species and create a new and diverse population and the genetic problems that come from multigenerational inbreeding are a myth.

[LoneMateria]

Religion sounds stupid but not believing seems to fail just as bad.

Why?

I don't know, it just seems very empty.

You don't need to validate your existence through some supernatural being.  You just need to find what gives you purpose, something you like doing.  Then do it.  If you enjoy working with computers pursue a career in which you will enjoy what you do.  Life is about the pursuit of happiness and the freedom to achieve your goals.  Only you can decide what makes you happy.  I don't need Santa Clause, elves, a unicorn, a god, or bigfoot to make me happy.  Happiness comes from within.

[Ultima22689]

Well, I do need elves actually. I don't know what I would do if Legolas didn't tuck me in at night.

[LoneMateria]

Here is something interesting that popped up on reddit.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/54850,news-comment,news-politics,after-scientific-proof-of-pain-should-we-ban-islamic-and-jewish-religious-slaughter

Scientists don't always make enemies of Animal Rights activists apparently.

[Will]

I'm glad we can cut through the propaganda from kosher OCD practices. I can't tell you how many times a Jewish or Muslim friend has assured me that holding an animal upside down and slashing its throat is somehow the most humane way for them to die. Don't get me wrong, the Muslim butcher has the best lamb in town, but let's not pretend that somehow god gave them a special method of slaughter. It causes extreme suffering.

Was there a thread about a humane method of slaughtering animals somewhere round these parts? I remember having a conversation about this.

[LoneMateria]

I don't remember one.  I figured this would be appropriate to add in here even though it may merit its own thread.  At least some places are taking a stance against this type of killing.  I don't think the U.S. can legally do it though because of our separation of church and state.  (A side note many religious people have selective memory about this law.  Homosexuality is a prime example, according to religion is bad and homosexuals should have no rights and the government should recognize it, but the religious practice of slaughtering animals is sacred and must be protected by separation of church and state [/end mini rant])