A French Revelation, or The Burning Bush

[Sheeplauncher]

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.ph ... aught_29_5
Check this out.

[skurry]

Oh my... G-Dub is worse off than I thought. No wonder the Muslims think we are a "Christian Nation".

[rlrose328]

When I read about that a few months ago, I was angry for a few weeks.  This war can now officially be added to the long list of deaths we can blame squarely at the foot of religion.  Makes me sick to my stomach.

Here's a collection of the report covers that Rumsfeld put on the weekly update reports for Dubya.

Seriously... If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

[Miss Anthrope]

Well, regardless of Bush's intentions, I don't think that the war can be blamed solely on religion. There are a lot of other factors involved, and for my money I'd say that it's mostly about, well...money.

[Ninteen45]

The Iraq war is a feeble attempt at trying to keep oil in agreeable hands. Iraq's overall corrupt leadership posed a huge threat to the US and most countries that depend on Oil from that area. If my memory serves me correct, it was the invasion of Iraq into Kuwait that really tripped off a bunch of alarms for everyone. The US (under George Bush Sr.) took action, mainly because if Iraq seized control of Kuwait and their resources, they would have a incredible power of the world economy by having control over a decent chunk of energy that everyone depends on.

I think that the main part that is wrong with the US is that we are overly-consumptive. We consume tooooo much beyond our means and cannot live simply. The Iraq war is a byproduct of this problem. If we had our own energy resources, or if we lived more resourcefully, we would not have to stick our noses in other countries business all the time. The Iraq war is solely based on control and keeping power from corrupt tyrants.

The media and government want to mask it and make it look like we are liberating that country and helping them grow. That is just a cover-up for the fact that we rely on their oil, and we want that oil controlled by someone that has the global economy in their best interest. This is why Saddam was removed, and we are thrusting billions of dollars into molding a country that will share their resources respectfully.

If the US was resourcefully independent, then we would not need to spend so much on a military. We only spend so much on a military because we have to be so involved in others affairs. We are too dependent on the stability of other countries because our money and consumption run far beyond our own borders.

http://www.gametechmods.com/forums/show ... stcount=27

[Miss Anthrope]

This is at you, Nineteen45 (didn't want to take up space re-quoting your post); I guess one way to look at it, taking what you posted into consideration, is that religion was likely used as sort of a cover to appease the Bush-ies/religious right. It's about money/control, but let's make it seem like a Holy War.

Whenever I heard people saying "Bush is a Christian", it annoyed the hell out of me; he was a poser. I know a few Christians who agree.

[Sophus]

Whenever I heard people saying "Bush is a Christian", it annoyed the hell out of me; he was a poser. I know a few Christians who agree.

Really? He seemed pretty sincere to me. Even "Daddy Bush" was deeply religious.

[Miss Anthrope]

Whenever I heard people saying "Bush is a Christian", it annoyed the hell out of me; he was a poser. I know a few Christians who agree.

Really? He seemed pretty sincere to me. Even "Daddy Bush" was deeply religious.

Well, maybe they're deluded enough to believe that they're Christians, but I would never equate them with the type of Christians I've known throughout my life. If anything, I see their "faith" as being more like an act that was required for their political agendas and "image". Kind of like, say, a famous preacher who doesn't really believe in what he's saying, but because he's so immersed in his act he doesn't even eally realize it.

I don't know, I could honestly be wrong, but something always seemed off to me.

[LoneMateria]

Well, maybe they're deluded enough to believe that they're Christians, but I would never equate them with the type of Christians I've known throughout my life. If anything, I see their "faith" as being more like an act that was required for their political agendas and "image". Kind of like, say, a famous preacher who doesn't really believe in what he's saying, but because he's so immersed in his act he doesn't even eally realize it.

I don't know, I could honestly be wrong, but something always seemed off to me.

Are we getting into a no true Scotsman argument?  Coming from one of the few areas left in our county that completely supported Bush's actions I've seen Bush used as an example of what type of Christian you should be.  People around here believed the war in Iraq was a holy endeavor and, being a military town, many people signed up to fight it and i've heard some people say that G.W. was a freaking prophet (no I didnt run the group of people over though humanity would have been better off).  I've watched something (maybe it was Penn & Tellers Bullshit! I dont know) where they bring a card board cutout of (now) ex-president Bush for the students in some classroom to pray over.

I've seen the intelligence documents before and it pissed me off because of the whole separation of church and state violation.  But I didn't know he came out and admitted it to anyone.  George W. Bush is what our founding fathers feared the most when they wrote the constitution and made the separation of church and state.  We are freaking lucky he didnt just decide to nuke everyone because of his religious convictions.   We were lucky he didnt have a hallucination (or a dream) of Jesus showing him to nuke the Middle East, because he would have done it in a heart beat.  Be glad that the president who was obsessed with the end times is fucking gone.

[Miss Anthrope]

OK, religion aside though, does anyone here actually think that money/oil/political agendas had nothing to do with it? I mean, follow the career trails of Condoleeza and Cheney.

I'm playing devils' advocate a little here: I don't think that religion is solely to blame for this war, nor many other things throughout history that religion gets balmed for. Take away religion, and human beings are still greedy,angry, aggressive, power hungry beasts.

[skurry]

I agree with you Miss Anth. But Religion made them think it was okay to do a lot of that, or rather an excuse to do it. It was a key tool in gaining support form the conservatives, that and fear mongering and misdirection. The fact that he thought it was god's will is completely insane and I think we are lucky he didn't think god wanted him to nuke the mid east.

[Miss Anthrope]

I agree with you Miss Anth. But Religion made them think it was okay to do a lot of that, or rather an excuse to do it. It was a key tool in gaining support form the conservatives, that and fear mongering and misdirection. The fact that he thought it was god's will is completely insane and I think we are lucky he didn't think god wanted him to nuke the mid east.

And I agree with you as well. I'm certainly not trying to take any of the heat off of religion, I just hate seeing one thing, religion, being used as the sole scapegoat for very complex problems.

I'm still very suspicious, though, about how deep Bush's convictions go. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that all of his religious talk was a bunch of crap to keep the religious right on his side.

[LoneMateria]

OK, religion aside though, does anyone here actually think that money/oil/political agendas had nothing to do with it? I mean, follow the career trails of Condoleeza and Cheney.

I'm playing devils' advocate a little here: I don't think that religion is solely to blame for this war, nor many other things throughout history that religion gets balmed for. Take away religion, and human beings are still greedy,angry, aggressive, power hungry beasts.

First off this reminds me of a quote but I can't remember who said it, "Without religion good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things it takes religion."

Okay first point I think religion played a primary role in the invasion of Iraq.  If we had someone in office with an objective view of everything who didn't see Islam as a force of the devil we probably wouldn't have invaded Iraq.  The fact that those documents (which were made to sway Bush's decision) appeared to him helped him justify his decision.  Since his god would be right behind him he couldn't lose.   Lol I dont know if you guys watch Mr. Deity.  I'll put a youtube link to the G.W. episode at the bottom.

I know gas prices didn't drop until the economy crashed.  Thus I don't think oil had as much motivation as others.  Money i'm honestly not sure of since we are in a huge debt.  Political agendas most definitely after we had invaded.  I do recall Cheney saying back in the 80's (paraphrasing here) that invading Iraq would be fruitless and would be a quagmire.

[youtube:2eq5yf6e]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG3ZegHerbQ[/youtube:2eq5yf6e]

[Miss Anthrope]

First off this reminds me of a quote but I can't remember who said it, "Without religion good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things it takes religion."

Okay first point I think religion played a primary role in the invasion of Iraq.  If we had someone in office with an objective view of everything who didn't see Islam as a force of the devil we probably wouldn't have invaded Iraq.  The fact that those documents (which were made to sway Bush's decision) appeared to him helped him justify his decision.  Since his god would be right behind him he couldn't lose.   Lol I dont know if you guys watch Mr. Deity.  I'll put a youtube link to the G.W. episode at the bottom.

I know gas prices didn't drop until the economy crashed.  Thus I don't think oil had as much motivation as others.  Money i'm honestly not sure of since we are in a huge debt.  Political agendas most definitely after we had invaded.  I do recall Cheney saying back in the 80's (paraphrasing here) that invading Iraq would be fruitless and would be a quagmire.

I just want be clear from the outset that I'm not really refuting what you're saying. When it comes down to it, we may never really know why exactly this war was started. I personally don't believe that there is ever just one reason, though. I do refute the quote about good/bad people, becasue I don't believe in good or bad people. And plenty of things make "good" people do bad things: greed, lust, jealousy, revenge,etc.


Let's not forget 9/11. People wanted vengeance. Great time to start a war. And by declaring a "war on terrorism", what else did the government get to introduce? The Patriot Act. Government wants power, and the Patriot Act made their power potentially limitless. I haven't read it all the way through, but what I have read was enough to get the jist of it.

Even before 9/11, just 10 days after taking office, Bush instructed his aides to find a way to overthrow Iraqi regimes. Talks of a post-Saddam iraq were already going on, and Pentagon documents involving oilfield contracts were known to exist. Clinton had also had discussions with Bush about Saddam and how he shouldn't be allowed to stay in power. This war wasn't thought up by Bush, the government has been wanting to do this for a long time.

The money? Not for you and me, but for military industries. And let's not forget Halliburton, who's contractors and employees were over there raping our tax money.

That brings up another point. I personally don't believe that the president really has all that much power. A president isn't like a monarch. In a lot of ways I think the modern president is more of a figurehead, or like a frontman for whoever he's representing.

I'm not an expert on all these things, but i know enough to know that the current war can't be simplified to "Religion is the cause." I think religion may have played a primary role in prettying up the whole thing for the American public, and to me that kind of front just makes me more suspicious that religon was used to voer up greed and lust for power. After all, what has the Roman catholic church always been about, particularly during the Dark Ages? Religion? No, greed and power. If anything, "bad" people use religion to do bad things while seeming "good."

[LoneMateria]

Too much to quote Miss Anthrope.  Were basically in agreement on all but a few things.  I'll agree that religion was the primary motivation but the question becomes how strong were his secondary motives?  Our government has been seeking to get more power for years before Bush took office and the Terror attacks on 9/11 gave them the ability to get it via the Patriot Act.  "A society who will trade personal freedoms for security deserve neither and lose both" ~Benjamin Franklin

A quick note about the good and bad people.  I understand that good and bad are arbitrary labels we place on actions of people that have an impact on society (positive and negative).  Also no one is exclusively good or bad but rather they act (in general) in the best interest for our society or don't.  Religion is common ground for those who, otherwise, would act in the best interests of society the majority of the time, and telling them that the opposite behavior is the best way to go.  I didn't feel like being anal-retentive about this detail, it's minor to me.  And the quote is good for those who aren't as anal :-D.

Okay enough of that back on topic.  I don't think anyone with half a brain (1/8 in Georges case) would spend $1T to make a few $100b for some companies, bad investment by anyones standards.  Btw i'll meet you halfway with the presidents power.  He is our foreign dignitary and doesn't have express power over our politics.  However as Commander in Chief he wields significant power since we have the #1 military.

I'm gonna get back to the point where religion is the primary reasons but there probably isn't a close secondary reason.  For someone like George who believes in the literal word of the bible there is no greater reason.  In the bible when there is an opponent to God what do the "good guys" do ... they kill them.  Taking the lessons the bible teaches him about what people in power do for their god, he calls his soldiers into battle ... because his god can't smite the enemies by himself for some reason.  He hurdles us into a war ... Bush's Crusade ... to save the holy land and to do God's will destroying whatever freedoms, ethnics, and justice that get in his way.