Faith v Logic

[Whitney]

How do you explain to someone why logic is a better tool for understanding reality than faith.  I usually say that logic has been time tested and adjusted to help us determine truths which stand up to observable evidence.  However, some people like to argue that since humans 'made up' the rules of logic then it is not more valid than faith.  

So, how do we explain why logic is the valid means while faith is not?  I've even heard people say that we put our faith in logic.  I think this line of argument leads to a place where nothing can really be known and everything we claim to know is actually faith based...thus making the word faith meaningless too.

[rlrose328]

This is another one of those arguments that can't be won, no matter how much you try.  THey just won't ever understand the difference.  Just know that you have logic and they have stupidity, and that's it.

[SSY]

Faith is not a tool for discerning truth, it is a means to justify what one has chosen to be true. You can have faith in anything you want,Jesus, GFSM, aliens, whatever, but there is no reason to have faith in one over the others. If anyone ever professes faith in anything, the obvious question is to ask them why they have faith in the particular thing, which will always lead to a stupid answer ("this is what my family believes, it speaks to me, etc etc").
The stupid answer can then be dismissed.

Faith is indiscriminate, any one thing is as worthy as faith as any other. The only way to differentiate is via evidence, which of course banishes faith.

[Sophus]

This image pretty much sums up what I think on the matter:



Faith is not a pursuit of truth, it is the pursuit of happiness, comfort and pride. Reason is only there for those brave enough to use it.

[JillSwift]

Faith is not a pursuit of truth, it is the pursuit of happiness, comfort and pride. Reason is only there for those brave enough to use it.

I have to agree with that.

I think the only reason that reason requires courage is because it eliminates the comforting lies of faith.

Is there really anything particularly scary about the universe unless compared to it's sugar-coated version? Is the permanence of death such a big deal, unless you discover it after being promised eternal life? Is the chaotic nature of the universe a big deal unless you've come to expect it to be ruled by a creator? Is man's inhumanity to man an insurmountable problem unless you've been promised divine justice and retribution?

Lies suck.

[curiosityandthecat]

Faith is not a pursuit of truth, it is the pursuit of happiness, comfort and pride. Reason is only there for those brave enough to use it.

I have to agree with that.

I think the only reason that reason requires courage is because it eliminates the comforting lies of faith.

 

[AlP]

Lol sorry to put a damper on this. Whitney was asking about faith versus logic rather than faith versus reason. There's a difference between logic and reason. Logic can be categorized as a branch of philosophy or a kind of critical thinking. It's rational. Reason need not be rational. I think part of the popularity of religion (and faith) is that it purports to have a reason for everything. At one time it did but that was later undermined by, among other things, science. For people living in Europe in medieval times, Christian reasoning was pretty much the only reasoning they had.

I wouldn't argue that logic is better than faith. They're both completely different kinds of things. That's like saying math is better than music. One is a very useful way of thinking about certain kinds of problems or analyzing arguments. The other, in this context, is belief in a system that purports to have a reason for everything. Logic doesn't provide reasons for anything. It doesn't give you premises, only a way to analyse or argue based on those premises.

[Santiago]

However, some people like to argue that since humans 'made up' the rules of logic then it is not more valid than faith.

How is this true?

I thought logic was a bunch of neuroreceptors dictating what makes sense and what doesn't.

[Whitney]

However, some people like to argue that since humans 'made up' the rules of logic then it is not more valid than faith.

How is this true?

I thought logic was a bunch of neuroreceptors dictating what makes sense and what doesn't.

I think that would be reason.  Logic has rules philosophers have ironed out over time.

[Sophus]

Lol sorry to put a damper on this. Whitney was asking about faith versus logic rather than faith versus reason. There's a difference between logic and reason. Logic can be categorized as a branch of philosophy or a kind of critical thinking. It's rational. Reason need not be rational. I think part of the popularity of religion (and faith) is that it purports to have a reason for everything. At one time it did but that was later undermined by, among other things, science. For people living in Europe in medieval times, Christian reasoning was pretty much the only reasoning they had.

True but I wasn't really thinking semantics when I wrote it and I think the point is still valid.   Good catch though.

[jbeukema]

How do you explain to someone why logic is a better tool for understanding reality than faith.  I usually say that logic has been time tested and adjusted to help us determine truths which stand up to observable evidence.  However, some people like to argue that since humans 'made up' the rules of logic then it is not more valid than faith.  

So, how do we explain why logic is the valid means while faith is not?  I've even heard people say that we put our faith in logic.  I think this line of argument leads to a place where nothing can really be known and everything we claim to know is actually faith based...thus making the word faith meaningless too.

Faith said the gods made the wind and the earth was the center of the universe.


Logic proved that wrong,.

Logic for teh win, faith fails again.

[Brizz]

Here is the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of faith:
"belief of something with or without proof"

Sounds retarded to me.

[iNow]

So, how do we explain why logic is the valid means while faith is not?  I've even heard people say that we put our faith in logic.  I think this line of argument leads to a place where nothing can really be known and everything we claim to know is actually faith based...thus making the word faith meaningless too.

As others have noted, arguing is generally a waste of time, but I appreciate the desire to correct/teach people who argue nonsense like "2+2=7"  It's like a crooked picture hanging on the wall which you simply cannot pass without taking a moment to level it.  You just HAVE to do something about it.  

With that said, and noting that your argument is more likely to help you and your peace of mind than it is to change their view...


They are equivocating.  There is a very real and unmistakable difference between "having faith that the sun will come up in the morning," or "having faith that gravity will keep me pulled to the surface of the earth and I won't magically float away," and "having faith that the farts of pink unicorns cause erections in leprechauns"  or "having faith that Jesus was born of a virgin, died, came back to life, and that masturbating will cause you to burn in a fiery hot place for all eternity."

One is "faith" based on experience and evidence, the other is "faith" in the express absence of evidence.  One is rational and reasonable, the other is indoctrinated bunk allowed to prosper only when one consciously suspends their desire to remain aligned with reality (what I've sometimes referred to as "mind cancer" and also the mechanism by which masses are controlled like sheep).


I think what may scare me the most is the fact that the second type of faith I described above is actively encouraged... It is seen as some sort of virtue, it is nourished, and it's regularly reinforced by believers.  That's dangerous, and there's truly no limit to the misdeeds and harm which can be done when that type of thinking is allowed to prosper, flourish, and spread.