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Circumcision

Started by Sophus, July 11, 2009, 07:44:43 AM

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Heretical Rants

Oh noes, I have to wash myself more often than some of my peers!!!

Where's the knife and antiseptic?


Tanker

Quote from: "Kylyssa"
Quote from: "Tanker"I can understand the sentimet really I can, I think it's sick to pierce a baby girls ears for some of the same reasons. I believe the do medicate the child well before hand but sometimes the aplication of that pain killer can be painfull like say novacain when you get a filling but honestly I don't know or sure. If the childs pain is such an issue mabey you could consider c-sections for a pain free (nearly) childbirth for the child (I'm being faciectious). Circumcision is such a non-issue for me when you consider all the trully frivilous surgery people have or the ones just because of vanity or lazyness. In fact the only circumcision I do have issue with and it phyically disgusts me is female circumcison. That is the one you should be trying to end. Male circumcision pales in comparison to it twisted female counterpart in my opion.

So, if a person's religious convictions led them to remove other non-vital body parts of their infant children you'd have no problem with that either.  Say, for instance, a person's religion requires the removal of all infants' pinky toes and earlobes- would that be cool, too?  

I think this is a holdover of the attitude that parents own their children and should be allowed to do anything they like to them.  The point is that a huge number of people get a substantial portion of their genitals cut off without their permission.  Yes, female circumcision is horrible, a lot more awful than male circumcision but people care about it.  People treat it like they are talking about an inoculation or something when they are referring to involuntary male circumcision.    

I said NOTHING about religion ,I said in an earlier post you may have missed my atheist mother chose to have us circumcised for health reasons. Carefull about those asumptions.

I would also like to make clear I'm not really pro-circumcisin I'm just not really against it either. It's just really not that big of a deal to me.
"I'd rather die the go to heaven" - William Murderface Murderface  Murderface-

I've been in fox holes, I'm still an atheist -Me-

God is a cake, and we all know what the cake is.

(my spelling, grammer, and punctuation suck, I know, but regardless of how much I read they haven't improved much since grade school. It's actually a bit of a family joke.

Heretical Rants

Quote from: "Tanker"health reasons.
Oh noes, I have to wash myself more often!!!!!!!

I can't find my knife; do you think fingernail clippers will work?

Tanker

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"
Quote from: "Tanker"health reasons.
Oh noes, I have to wash myself more often!!!!!!!

I can't find my knife; do you think fingernail clippers will work?

I would recomend a window fan, much quicker.
"I'd rather die the go to heaven" - William Murderface Murderface  Murderface-

I've been in fox holes, I'm still an atheist -Me-

God is a cake, and we all know what the cake is.

(my spelling, grammer, and punctuation suck, I know, but regardless of how much I read they haven't improved much since grade school. It's actually a bit of a family joke.

Heretical Rants

Too late.

How do I stop the bleeding?

NVM, this handkerchief is working pretty well for that.

rlrose328

I'm not going to get into a big huge discussion about it, but we did circumcise... we didn't know there was a big to-do about it until long after we did it.  Why did we?  Because... we just did.  My dad was, my husband is... most every man I know was.  I know NO ONE who has a crooked penis because of circumcision or who has had ANY problems because of it.  Maybe if I had, it may have been an issue.
**Kerri**
The Rogue Atheist Scrapbooker
Come visit me on Facebook!


Kylyssa

Quote from: "rlrose328"I know NO ONE who has a crooked penis because of circumcision or who has had ANY problems because of it.  Maybe if I had, it may have been an issue.

Maybe that's why I think of it as a big issue.  I have a friend I dearly love who has almost no sensation in his penis due to a post circumcision infection.  His parents didn't even know that not getting him circumcised was even an option.  

People are remarkably callous when it comes to male sexual dysfunction.

Kylyssa

Quote from: "Tanker"I said NOTHING about religion ,I said in an earlier post you may have missed my atheist mother chose to have us circumcised for health reasons. Carefull about those asumptions.

I'm sure your mother's reasoning was not religious but the program to get circumcision made standard was.  The assumption is that a doctor recommended circumcision or scheduled it and your mother simply had to sign for it, your mother probably didn't come up with the idea on her own.  

Until recently, it was standard procedure, something brought about in the early 20th century for the purpose of preventing masturbation as well as adherence to religious practice.  The other health reasons were not seriously studied until the 90's and the data on STD transmission studies didn't even come out until after the year 2000.

rlrose328

Quote from: "Kylyssa"
Quote from: "rlrose328"I know NO ONE who has a crooked penis because of circumcision or who has had ANY problems because of it.  Maybe if I had, it may have been an issue.

Maybe that's why I think of it as a big issue.  I have a friend I dearly love who has almost no sensation in his penis due to a post circumcision infection.  His parents didn't even know that not getting him circumcised was even an option.  

People are remarkably callous when it comes to male sexual dysfunction.

I'm not callous... I don't know if that was directed at me or not.  I feel for ANYONE who has sexual dysfunction... I have no mammary sensation whatsoever and while that's not pertinent to the act itself, it is still a major bummer.

I was just saying I know of no one (emphasis may have been  uncalled for) who has no sensation due to a botched circumcision.  That would definitely make an impact on your view of the procedure.

This is why I didn't want to get involved in this conversation.  I'm seen as callous for cutting my son's penis, apparently not caring whether he's scarred or not </sarcasm>.   We didn't do it for religious reasons or because we're some sort of baby abusers or because a doctor talked us into it.  They asked if we wanted to circumcise and we both said yes without even talking to each other.  Never occurred to us either to or not to do it.  If my son suffers for it, I will apologize profusely and offer to help him to something about it.  But right now, what's done is done and I don't regret it at all.
**Kerri**
The Rogue Atheist Scrapbooker
Come visit me on Facebook!


VanReal

Wow!  Like Rose I didn't realize this was such a big deal either.  I had my son done right after birth.  It is much easier to clean, and to teach to clean, and quite frankly is more attractive, as attractive as a penis can be  :D
In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular. (Kathy Norris)
They say I have ADHD but I think they are full of...oh, look a kitty!! (unknown)

Fellow Traveler

Quote from: "hismikeness"Here's my take. The pain at childbirth is irrelevant. Ask any guy who is circumcised if he remembers that pain. Nope. I think it is a totally personal decision for the parents. If it's left up to the adult male later in life, it never happens. No way someone is whacking foreskin off my Johnson any time after 0.02 years old.

I am not picking on you specifically (I like most of your other points), I saw this type of statement elsewhere in the thread but I have to ask the question, if it isn't something that an adult would choose for themselves, how can it be ethically justifiable to do to a non-consenting individual? Especially considering that it's medically non-therapeutic in virtually all cases.

Quote from: "hismikeness"Medical reasons, meh. Used to be about 100 years ago. Hygiene. I've heard this one that infections, not necessarily STD's, are more common around the enclosed tip of an uncircumcised person.

Actually, not even 100 years ago. Circumcision only really became common in the early to mid 20th century and only in a small handful of countries including the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and to a much lesser extent the UK. It was abandon in the UK by the 1950, NZ by the 1970s, Australia and Canada have been in the process of abandoning it since the 1980s currently only about 10 - 15% of boys are circumcised in those countries. Circumcision has declined in the US but much more slowly, bad habits die hard I guess and perhaps we're stubborn. Other than that it's an essentially unknown procedure in the rest of the first world (at least the secular practice) and has never been performed widely.  

Quote from: "hismikeness"Teach them to wash properly, no biggie. Stigma of not looking like others, I guess. But after a while you could probably retort by blasting someone back and asking that they stop looking at your dick. I have heard claims that for the man, sexually, being uncircumcised is better, because the foreskin covers the most sensitive areas during times of non arousal, and only during arousal do those areas get any exposure, which usually means sexual activity of some kind, and the area is less prone to becoming desensitized. Better orgasms, umm, I'm ok with that.

I will probably pass if I have a son or sons. Don't know how the wife feels, haven't asked. Probably will now though.

Hismikeness

All good points.

Quote from: "Sophus"I've don't really see it as necessary either but would it be worth arguing it's better to be safe than sorry? I know the possibility of cancer is rare, but you can't really miss what you don't know, ya know?

Cancer is very rare about 1/100000. The American Cancer Society has a sheet on this here.

QuoteIn the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other risk factors, such as smoking, personal hygiene, and the number of sexual partners.

Most public health researchers believe that the risk of penile cancer is low among uncircumcised men without known risk factors living in the United States. Most experts agree that circumcision should not be recommended as a way to prevent penile cancer.

Sophus

Yeah, there are pros and cons and risks on both sides. Although I suppose it would be best if people actually thought about it rather than just doing so because of their religion. Not that really matters.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

rlrose328

Hubby reminded me that we DID ask the doctor about how common it is these days and he said that about 65% of the babies he delivered are circumcised... and this was in Berkeley, California, where rooming in is mandatory and if you don't breastfeed, it's tantamount to child abuse.  He offered no pros or cons, just answered our questions and let us decided.  We DID both say yes without much more than a "what do you think" to each other.  Even when we mentioned it to nurses, etc., they never offered any horror stories.  It is what I would expect from a medical professional, but these days, you just don't know.

I'm not a "proponent" of it nor do I scoff at those who don't.  I don't care one way or the other.  I dated both circumcised and uncircumcised men... frankly, I prefer the look and feel of an uncircumcised penis.  And this was from before I really understood what circumcision really is (I was a naive teen, despite my running away and acting out at the time.

Would I do it again knowing what I know now?  Yes.
**Kerri**
The Rogue Atheist Scrapbooker
Come visit me on Facebook!


Purewater

I come from the Uk where it isn't done and so I am not circumcised myself (nor would I want to be).  But I do know a lot about the subject because I looked into it when I found to my disbelief that more than half of Americans were done.

It turns out that non-religious circumcision was uncommon until the Victorian era when doctors with limited knowledge began to use circumcision as a means of stopping boys from masturbating (thinking that masturbation cased insanity and nervous disorders such as epilepsy).  It never really took hold in the Uk and fewer than 30% were ever circumcised. It was stoped completely when the National health service (NHS) decided not to fund it, largely thanks to this study:
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/gairdner/

Here is a good site on history:

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

Also it does impact on sex.  For starters, masturbation is harder.  With a natural penis you just move the skin up and down.  The inside of the foreskin is very sensitive and as you move it up and down it is pleasurable.  This page gives a good idea for those who don't know how an intact penis works:
http://geocities.com/painfulquestioning/naturalresources  (contains penis pic)

Circed guys have no foreskin and so they either rub it (which can cause redness and chafing) or they have to actually use an artificial lubricant.  Maybe this is why the USA describes masturbating as "rubbing one off" whereas we call it "wanking"?

Also when you remove the foreskin it means that the glans underneath dries out.  Not only that but it comes into contact with clothing and this seems to make the skin harder:
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm (contains penis pic)

It also has an effect on sexual intercourse , not only for the man but for the woman.  This site gives a good explanation:
http://xrl.us/foreskinfunctions  (contains penis pic)

Also in terms of care in infancy, leaving the boy intact is also a lot easier.  There is nothing to do.  No cleaning is required as the foreskin is unretractable in infancy.  Unfortunately some doctors in the USA have limited knowledge of this fact.  They pull the foreskin back causing damage and creating scar tissue which could lead to problems retracting the foreskin down the line.  
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/
This is probably the main reason you hear of it being done later.  Misdiagnosis of phimosis (unretractable foreskin).  Also, true phimosis (as opposed to it being physiological) caused by scar tissue due to incorrect care in infancy.

Some studies show some medical benefit but others don't and no medical association recommends non-therapeutic infant circumcision. Most  boys will not benefit health-wise from circumcision.  Here are some good summaries:
http://cirp.org/library/disease/
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/eletters/119/5/1006#23937
http://www.circumstitions.com/AAP-ana.html
http://www.nature.com/nrurol/journal/v6/n2/full/ncpuro1292.html

Also there are very few medical indications for circumcision nowadays.  Problems can usually be solved without surgery.

Ultimately though , it is the fact that you are removing a part of the boy's penis which has protective and sexual functions without his consent, which is why I am opposed to it.

The other reason is that I get angry and feel immensely sorry for those who have had severely botched circumcisions:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html
http://www.catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/cac_complications.htm