On Family Members and WooWoo

[thiolsulfate]

(Sorry I'm making lots of new threads today, it's way too hot and I need to do something keep my mind off my boiling in my skin.)

(I couldn't think of another subforum to put this into, if this is inappropriate I apologize.)

I have a cousin who's had it pretty hard. (For the sake of convenience I'll refer to her as Tina.) She lives in New York and we haven't been particularly close until recently and she's spent the past two years putting herself through Eastern Medicine school.

Now, I know it's bullshit. The herbalism she's learning is no different from iron age botany, acupuncture is just an exaggerated placebo treatment, feng sui is interior design with a useless spiritual element etc. etc.

I know she's throwing her money away, but I don't have the heart to tell her. She's almost done, she's invested almost everything she has into it, and I know that there is a wealth of stupid people willing to pay her to stick needles into them and give them a root to eat. At the same time I know there's a serious potential for harm in what she does if one of her "patients" should choose to see her instead of a proper doctor.

What do I do?

Her father came to visit a few weeks ago and he's a great guy with some odd animist beliefs. He believes that trees talk to him, ghosts exist, and that his kung fu gives him mild supernatural powers -- but apart from that he is the most fun of my relatives. He asked me point blank what I thought about acupuncture and I told him that it works the same way any pain would, that sharp pain anywhere on the body would trigger endorphin release and suppress pain; that's it not necessary to spend so much time to practice it since studies done on it show that true acupuncture is as effective as sham acupuncture (needles placed in wrong trigger points) and as effective as false acupuncture (sensation of needle puncture but no actual puncture). I explained that a western doctor had traveled to Japan for a decade to study acupuncture and concluded, at the end of it, that only two of the 365 meridians were worth knowing and that all acupuncture treatments could be done without needles on two points on the body and generate the maximum effects -- to which my father (a stern Sino-nationalist) said that the western doctor cited didn't learn real acupuncture because acupuncture originated in China... as though that bolstered acupuncture in any way.

They asked me about Feng Sui and I told them it was pointless, that it didn't work, and that just hiring an interior designer would be a faster and likely less expensive way to rearrange one's furniture.

They asked me about herbalism and I told them it was no different from modern botany except nothing is tested, measured, or recorded; and that herbalism hasn't advanced in the thousands of years since herbalist started grinding things and boiling them based on nothing but mild inklings and blind intuition. I explained that likely few of the herbalist treatments would actually work better than a placebo and that drinking boiled bear tail was a waste of water and a cruel waste of a bear.

So there it is. My uncle took it fairly well. As he says, he's "skeptical of [my] skepticism," and walked away from the subject without a word. I like to think I may have enlightened him some, but he's believed, fervently, in spirits and ghosts since he was a child and I doubt that he'll check those beliefs before he dies.

I worry, however, about my cousin Tina because I have started to enjoy how close the two of us have become and I don't want to jeopardize our relationship.

[pedricero matao]

tough issue here dude.

Why not taking it as for example having a religious relative. You could just try communicating your worries about her trying not to sound offensive as nobody likes being told they believe in bullshit. Maybe just tell her you're worried about her getting into trouble (for example in case one of her "patients" gets badly hurt because of her practices or wathever). Trying to make someone think and say "i've wasted my money and my time in all this" rarely works. If you just tried just expressing your thoughts about her wellbeing and offering your help, it is more probable to be welcome (or at least you won't ruin your relationship)

The thing with believing in feng shui and all that... i almost prefer that to religion. At least these guys don't want myself to apologize for everything and don't go spying in my sexual activities. If they're receptive (I mean, if they are really willing to reason) you can simply get them to see the incompatibility between, for example, ghosts and "energies" and things like their fridges working properly or how simple chemistry or thermodynamics do work.

Hope i made myself clear... somewhat rusty English, sorry!

[curiosityandthecat]

My wife is Chinese (Taiwanese to be specific). I struggle with this sort of thing all the time. She isn't into feng shui, thankfully, but there are a lot of traditional Chinese remedies she firmly believes in. At first I was very resistant to them, thinking, "We have all this great Western medicine, scientifically developed, tested, retested, re-retested...." Then I got to thinking (in reference to the herbalism): 'You know, the Chinese have been doing this much, much, much longer than Western medicine has, and they wouldn't have kept doing it for thousands of years if there wasn't something to it, even if it is the placebo effect, the placebo effect works."

I figure, if it works, it works. Take ginger, for example. The Wikipedia says,

The characteristic odor and flavor of ginger root is caused by a mixture of zingerone, shogaols and gingerols, volatile oils that compose about one to three percent of the weight of fresh ginger. In laboratory animals, the gingerols increase the motility of the gastrointestinal tract and have analgesic, sedative, antipyretic and antibacterial properties.

My wife says, "Here, drink this. It will warm up your body and make you better."

Is she wrong, simply because she doesn't explain how it happens, just that it works? After her cooking and home remedies, I gotta say, I'm sold. The active ingredients in a number of Western medicine are derived from the compounds found inside the herbs and roots the Chinese have been using for thousands of years.

As for eating tiger penis to increase one's prowess... I'm still not so sure about that one.  

[thiolsulfate]

My wife is Chinese (Taiwanese to be specific). I struggle with this sort of thing all the time. She isn't into feng shui, thankfully, but there are a lot of traditional Chinese remedies she firmly believes in. At first I was very resistant to them, thinking, "We have all this great Western medicine, scientifically developed, tested, retested, re-retested...." Then I got to thinking (in reference to the herbalism): 'You know, the Chinese have been doing this much, much, much longer than Western medicine has, and they wouldn't have kept doing it for thousands of years if there wasn't something to it, even if it is the placebo effect, the placebo effect works."

I figure, if it works, it works. Take ginger, for example. The Wikipedia says,

The characteristic odor and flavor of ginger root is caused by a mixture of zingerone, shogaols and gingerols, volatile oils that compose about one to three percent of the weight of fresh ginger. In laboratory animals, the gingerols increase the motility of the gastrointestinal tract and have analgesic, sedative, antipyretic and antibacterial properties.

My wife says, "Here, drink this. It will warm up your body and make you better."

Is she wrong, simply because she doesn't explain how it happens, just that it works? After her cooking and home remedies, I gotta say, I'm sold. The active ingredients in a number of Western medicine are derived from the compounds found inside the herbs and roots the Chinese have been using for thousands of years.

As for eating tiger penis to increase one's prowess... I'm still not so sure about that one.  

My parents are just like your wife.

Just because something is old doesn't make it good. Just because it has been practiced for centuries doesn't mean it's effective.

Let's think about this for just a moment, Chinese herbalism is centuries old, I'll concede that; but it hasn't changed in centuries. They're still just picking stuff, grinding it up and/or boiling it, and downing it for no particular reason except gut feelings that it should work. What mild selective process took place just excluded that which would kill you outright and associated any benefit with that which was consumed -- which would be great if they had the foresight to perform double-blind testing with control groups. It's taking iron age botany into the modern era and that is unacceptable. If the medicinal value of something depends solely on the tradition of having taking it, it is not worth taking.

Yes, Chinese herbalism is centuries old, but centuries ago you were lucky if you saw 40.

On your premise:

Is she wrong, simply because she doesn't explain how it happens, just that it works? After her cooking and home remedies, I gotta say, I'm sold.

My counter is that, at least for the effectiveness of ginger, you didn't take it on face value. You looked it up, you found out that it actually did have benefits, so you accepted it. That's rational and reasonable. Boiled willow bark manages pain because it contains aspirin. Boiled star anise, apart from just being tasty, helps manage flu symptoms (but not Japanese Star Anise which is toxic). The reason why those bits have legitimacy is because it has been tested, their effectiveness has been proven in laboratory. They have crossed the border from alternative medicine to medicine.

In the absence of that, to take something called a curative, whose curative properties are based only on the tradition of it having been taken as a curative, is irresponsible and irrational. It is just prayer with a material component.

[Heretical Rants]

[rlrose328]

HereticalRants:

Exactly.

[Heretical Rants]

An interesting aspect of the placebo effect is that the more expensive the placebo is, the better it works.

SO, give me all your money and I will cure you!

[Dragon_Of_Heavon]

I say that it is best to relate your worries but do not be surprised if they do not agree. All you can do is tell them what you think. This is really the only thing you can do if you want to keep having them be as close to you.