If in the beginning there is only god...

[easytrak]

i can understand why you would think consciousness is an evolved trait since you believe consciousness is of time and space. is that the fundamental problem you have with the theistic definition of free-will?

one question: if your definition of free-will is that it is a thing of time and space, how is it possible that you cannot escape belief in determinism?

[McQ]

i can understand why you would think consciousness is an evolved trait since you believe consciousness is of time and space. is that the fundamental problem you have with the theistic definition of free-will?

one question: if your definition of free-will is that it is a thing of time and space, how is it possible that you cannot escape belief in determinism?

First, easytrak, you might want to let people know who it is you're addressing, by putting their names in your post. I have to assume you mean me with this.

Second, you assume I have a problem with the theistic definition of free will. I never said I had a problem, just that I wanted you to clearly define what you mean by free will so that I didn't assume you meant something else.

And lastly, free will, as generally described by humans and particularly by christians, is a construct made by humans. Period. Why do you think there's so much trouble defining it? It's because people make up their own definitions for it. Just pick the one you use and go from there. If you believe that free will is something outside of space-time, by all means elaborate.

But please stop assuming so much, when I'm just trying to get to a starting point with you. Let's try and get there first, ok?

[easytrak]

I am sorry McQ. I am trying to figure out what it is you want me to say. Maybe you want me to give a concrete definition of free-will as opposed to one which is abstract?

Could you please answer this question though: Do you think we are in control of our own destinies, or are we slaves to our own desires and passions?

[McQ]

I am sorry McQ. I am trying to figure out what it is you want me to say. Maybe you want me to give a concrete definition of free-will as opposed to one which is abstract?

Could you please answer this question though: Do you think we are in control of our own destinies, or are we slaves to our own desires and passions?

easytrak, I am not the one trying to give a definition of free will, I am the one asking you for clarification so that there may be a fruitful discussion. There are many definitions of free will, and I'm asking you which one specifically that you use. Only then can there be further discussion. The only reason I even gave the earlier "borrowed" information of free will was to give you some idea of why I think it's such a slippery topic.

I've said this a couple of times now, in a couple of different ways, so that you understand me. If this is too much, then I really can't think of any reason to go on here. I have very little interest in this topic to begin with.

As for your question of slave to desires...again, difficult to answer, because I don't know what you mean by "desires". If you mean our basic, inherent, animal kingdom instincts, then we have only that control over them that you already see in humans. We can't control autonomic function, but we can resist primal urges, such as need for procreation (although I rather like this particular one).

Human beings, sentient as we are, can reason, but do not always do so. Therefore, I hold the position that we can exert some varying degrees of control over certain "desires", but I don't have a clue as to what you mean by desires, so we may be coming at it from totally different perspectives.

[easytrak]

hello McQ. the definition of free-will which i gave earlier is the best i can do. i know nothing of the internal mechanics of free-will. for me it is a case of accepting it for what it is. at any rate, i am glad that you agree we have control over our own destinies. if we are both agreed on this point, then i think that it doesn't really matter how we define free-will.