A Hard Question for Christians

[Kiros]

Well, minstrelofc, if God is real and he cannot be unjust, then how do you explain horrible diseases and coditions that some children have been born with? For example, the boy that was born with frail skin, whose skin would fall off with every touch, who suffered through unimaginable pain everyday, who had to accept that he would die young. Did he do something so heinous that he deserved to be born with that condition?

Surely God's will was just and sound.

With that said, what about the whole "faith of a child" bit? Most of us (atheists and Christians) have all heard that and know what it means. But think about it. We were all children once. We were all told what to do, what not to do, what to think, and what not to think. "Faith of a child" can be summarized as a father saying "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you." Furthermore, children are not actually allowed to speak their own mind and to think their own thoughts. It's a shame, but it's reality. Very few parents (even in this generation) will allow their child to do what they want to do. There are reasons for this: a slight lack of in-depth comprehension, a great lack of discipline, and a lack of general wisdom. However, I don't agree that children shouldn't be treated as if they are mindless.

At any rate, the only reason "faith of a child" exists is because faith is forced upon children. Yet still, the "faith of a child" is admired by countless adult Christians - even the ones who have done the force-feeding. If you have eyesight, then you'll be able to see this point very clearly.

[minstrelofc]

Doesn't god require praise and worship?  Aren't several of the ten commandments related directly towards that?

You know, I thought there were too until I just looked them up. There actually aren't any (in "The 10") directly requiring praise and worship. It's implied with "no other gods before me" and, perhaps "keep the sabbath holy" (kinda), but it isn't exactly stated.

There are plenty of other verses which say that we should, however. Personally, I believe that all of the "commandments" (wherever they are in the Bible) are for our benefit. If we follow them, it benefits us. If we don't follow them, it hurts us.

Benefits of Praising and Worshiping God
(Obviously these are only benefits if God exists)
Focusing on what is good (God, in this case) keeps us motivated to be good ourselves.
Reduces stress (God is more powerful than our problems, and will keep us safe)
Instructional (many praise songs will remind us of important lessons)
Bonding with other Christians (Shared activity, etc)

There's likely other benefits as well, those are just the first that come to mind.


Kiros:
Regarding your first point, I'll sleep on it, and try to come up with a clear, yet sensitive way of phrasing what I believe. Note, however, that in comparison, I've been born into ridiculously easy circumstances, so I can't really know how hard those sorts of things are to live with. All I can do is describe what I have observed (in myself and in others), and what I have been able to deduce from that.

About your second point:

With that said, what about the whole "faith of a child" bit? Most of us (atheists and Christians) have all heard that and know what it means. But think about it. We were all children once. We were all told what to do, what not to do, what to think, and what not to think. "Faith of a child" can be summarized as a father saying "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you." Furthermore, children are not actually allowed to speak their own mind and to think their own thoughts. It's a shame, but it's reality. Very few parents (even in this generation) will allow their child to do what they want to do. There are reasons for this: a slight lack of in-depth comprehension, a great lack of discipline, and a lack of general wisdom. However, I don't agree that children shouldn't be treated as if they are mindless.

At any rate, the only reason "faith of a child" exists is because faith is forced upon children. Yet still, the "faith of a child" is admired by countless adult Christians - even the ones who have done the force-feeding. If you have eyesight, then you'll be able to see this point very clearly.

I do agree that children should be allowed - no - encouraged - to think, speak, and debate things. If they don't learn how to reason when they are young, it will be very difficult for them to learn to when they are older.

That said, I completely disagree with your definition of "faith of a child". Your example of "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you" is not "faith", it's "fear", "terror" - not a good thing (except in very special circumstances). There's an interesting thing about kids - they lack certain levels of discrimination. If you tell your kid something, they'll believe you, they'll stand up for you, and when presented with seemingly contradictory information, they'll work to reason out a way that what you said could be true. It's only once they get older that they'll start doubting what they've been told. (Note: IANAECP (Early Childhood Psychologist) - This is an amalgam of what I remember, what I have observed, and what I have heard from others)

That is what is meant by "faith of a child". For an adult, it should be a conscious choice: I choose to believe the Bible, and will use my reasoning to combine what I see in the world with what I read in the Bible.

I can see your objection, and I agree -- IF the Bible is false, then I am using my reasoning to a false end; I might as well determine what grade of carbon-fiber composite is needed for the harnesses on Santa's sleigh.

[PipeBox]

PipeBox: Fascinating argument - I like how you constructed it. I wonder if you're going to "catch me". (Is it weird if I   )

Thanks, and sorry for taking so long to reply, I honestly wasn't up to thinking it over until just now.

Okay, let's start by approaching it though one of my own "pet theories".

Does God have free will?

If we define "free will" in a human way, then no, He does not. There are many things that any of us with His power and abilities could do, but He cannot. He cannot lie, He cannot cheat, He cannot be unjust. He cannot ignore the consequences of His actions.

Then God is necessarily subservient to greater universal concepts.  Logic, in that he cannot do two contradicting things while still not contradicting himself.  Morality, in that he must not cheat, steal, or lie.  In your example, God does not dictate what is good, good dictates what is God.  I could elaborate further, but I don't think I need to.

He cannot do these things, not because He's impotent, but because they are (to Him) simply contradictory. Much like he can't "Make a stone so heavy he can't lift it" - because it's a physical paradox, He cannot lie, because He is the benchmark for Truth.

I contend that if he is truly omnipotent that he can make a rock so large he cannot move it, but if he ever desires to, he can make himself capable of moving it.  Though, the fact that omnipotence demands physical paradoxes should tell you that it doesn't exist.

So, we've established that there are certain things that He can't do, but there's more. There are certain things He MUST do. If someone does wrong (abuses a kid, let's say) then he MUST punish that wrong - if He had the power to, and did not, then he would NOT be a God of Justice.

I'll leave the moral stuff out of it, as what God does to people in his realms, external to reality, has no bearing on us.  But when you say there are things he MUST do, I wonder if you mean that God must be exactly as he is and everything must've been created exactly as it was.  Because then there is no way to disprove your belief.  Indeed, it's an anthropic argument that could've been made equally well even if the universe was different, so long as there were observers to make it.  This is something of a mash between determinism, theology, and assumptions about the nature of your God.  Mind you, this would still mean your god is a bastard, but at least it agrees with reality.  This belief just amounts to all of testable, verifiable reality + the assumption of God.

In fact (if I may combine my "pet theories"), it's possible that re: my discussion with VanReal, God HAD TO create us.

If He is Loving, then He must have someone to love. So He created us, perfectly.
If He is Merciful, then He must have someone who has done wrong to be merciful towards. So He gave us the ability to hurt Him.
If He is Just, then He must punish our wrongdoing. So once we had "sinned", He cannot simply let us "off the hook".
If He is Forgiving, then He must resolve this quandary. So He had Jesus live a perfect life, and willingly take our punishment (which Jesus did not deserve) so that as long as we ask for forgiveness, justice has already been served, and He can forgive us.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent.
If God is able to prevent evil, but not willing, then he malevolent.
If God is both willing and able, then whence cometh evil?
If God is neither willing to prevent evil, nor able, then why call him God?

That'd be the epicurean paradox.
In contrast, your example only allows God to posses certain qualities at certain times.  If I do it . . .

If He is Loving, and desired something beyond Himself to love, He would create someone to love, and give them the greatest attention and show equal kindness.
If He is Merciful, then he would have no use for hell, for infinite compassion cannot justify infinite punishment.
If He is Just, infinite torment could never be necessitated by finite crimes.
If He is Merciful, then there would be no reason for him to need to be separately Forgiving.

Would it be insane to choose sin over God? or just incredibly short-sighted?
Note that according to my random theory, God HAD to make us such that we would choose sin over Him. However, it HAD to be a willful act of disobedience - otherwise it wouldn't count, as we would actually be doing his will, not fulfilling our purpose - remember that (according to the theory) God HAD to create us in that way - it wasn't necessarily His "desire" to do so. (yes, this bit is complex, but so is General Relativity -- a theory that is still not-quite accurate in describing a PHYSICAL phenomenon, never mind a Psychological, or even Spiritual one --- I can try to break this down into more quantifiable bits if needed/requested)
After that, (and this is the "aha" I had about 2-3 years ago) it was simply "triage". God's Loving desire is for everyone to be saved, but due to what he CAN and CANNOT do, only "a few" will be saved.

Internal inconsistencies in italics.
Bastard actions in bold.

Well, maybe he isn't such a bastard if he has no choice, but the cognitive dissonance of God is staggering.  If he made us to sin, fully intending that we elect sin over him, then it's still his will.  The best part is that Jesus's sacrifice would have far less impact than Adam's original sin, eh?

Problems I have with my theory:

It seems very "limiting" to God. Can God only choose the incidentals of what happens (hair colo(u)r, etc)? Is our conception of "free will" even applicable or desired of God? Perhaps the problem lies with our understanding of "free will", "character", and so forth - it might be (and I'm still missing the :roll: icon) "beyond our understanding".

Can your version of God even choose incidentals?  But nevermind that, "beyond our understanding" is a whored out excuse for things that don't make sense.  Find an issue with your god and reality, then previously it was a test, or satan's sabotage of God's plan, now it's just "beyond our understanding" for the typical Christian.  I realize this is why you put it in quotes, but friends of mine have used this and it's nothing more than a way of opting out of a tough line of thought.

Semi-problem: Couldn't God use a better strategy to save us all? Simply appearing "in the clouds" to everyone in the world should definitely be "enough" to convince us all to ask for forgiveness. On the other hand - if He did that... Would we really be asking for forgiveness of our own free will? As you yourself say: "It would be insane for anyone to choose sin over God". If God did that, we would be compelled to do His bidding, and that could cause the whole thing to collapse.

Seeing as how Jesus supposedly performed miracles, rose from the dead, and appeared to hundreds of people and made them all start speaking in tongues post-resurrection, I'm gonna say that either God is OK with taking away free will or the choice was still theirs.  In fact, I know it was:  Evolution is a fact, for example, but people still choose not to believe in it.  Their belief has no impact on the status of it as a fact, though.  So, I want my personal appearance of Jesus and a few miracles, otherwise I'm just gonna say your god is mighty unfair for supposedly being so just and merciful.  So, short answer, yes, your God supposedly can and has used better methods for saving people, the rest of us just aren't worthy because, well, you know how he is.

Again, these are just my thoughts, and I look forward to you collapsing them all by pointing out all the things I've overlooked  

[Kiros]

Kiros:
Regarding your first point, I'll sleep on it, and try to come up with a clear, yet sensitive way of phrasing what I believe. Note, however, that in comparison, I've been born into ridiculously easy circumstances, so I can't really know how hard those sorts of things are to live with. All I can do is describe what I have observed (in myself and in others), and what I have been able to deduce from that.

Alright. Just remember reality - real reality. Some people suffer everyday of their lives and for no reason at all (i.e. they didn't do anything to deserve it). If you do supply me with your belief on the matter, I'd like to hear some reasons as to why you believe such.

About your second point:
...

I do agree that children should be allowed - no - encouraged - to think, speak, and debate things. If they don't learn how to reason when they are young, it will be very difficult for them to learn to when they are older.

I'm glad that you agree with me on one thing. However, even after mentally or physically abused, children can still grow older and learn as adolescents and young adults. The human mind is very flexible in that aspect.

That said, I completely disagree with your definition of "faith of a child". Your example of "Believe it, or I'll beat the hell right out of you" is not "faith", it's "fear", "terror" - not a good thing (except in very special circumstances). There's an interesting thing about kids - they lack certain levels of discrimination. If you tell your kid something, they'll believe you, they'll stand up for you, and when presented with seemingly contradictory information, they'll work to reason out a way that what you said could be true. It's only once they get older that they'll start doubting what they've been told. (Note: IANAECP (Early Childhood Psychologist) - This is an amalgam of what I remember, what I have observed, and what I have heard from others)

That is what is meant by "faith of a child". For an adult, it should be a conscious choice: I choose to believe the Bible, and will use my reasoning to combine what I see in the world with what I read in the Bible.

You're absolutely right. It's not faith at all.

Children start doubting at a very young age. For example, I started doubting that Santa was real when I had just turned 6 years old (Christmas Eve is exactly 2 months away from my birthday). My doubt was based on the fact that I never saw him, there was no real way to contact him, and the claim that he could give presents to everyone on the planet in the span of one day was just too absurd. So my theory was that Santa didn't exist and parents were just using him for two main reasons: to ensure good behavior in times of need and to guarantee that children could not be upset with their parents if they didn't receive what they wanted. Basically, I stayed up past my bedtime, faked being asleep, saw my parents come check that my brother and I were asleep, and heard my parents wrapping the presents while having a short discussion about them. When confronted with this, of course my parents tried to reassure me that Santa was real, but after repeating myself time and time again, they just ignored me.

Religion is a bit different. If a child completely doubts their parents' religious beliefs, it's understandably common that one parent, if not both, will become upset. Children are helpless to physical abuse, so it's fairly easy for any parent to frighten a child into doing, thinking, and saying anything.

When it's not physical threats, it's the threat of hell in general. I've experienced both of these tactics first-hand when I asked "Why?" too many times.

The "faith of a child" is not faith at all. It's the end-result of brainwashing.

You'll find that the only children that don't have the "faith of a child" are the ones that haven't had it forced upon them.

I can see your objection, and I agree -- IF the Bible is false, then I am using my reasoning to a false end; I might as well determine what grade of carbon-fiber composite is needed for the harnesses on Santa's sleigh.

Truth be told, the bible has to be false. It's known as the word of God, yet it was written completely by men - men that didn't agree on everything.

By the by, Santa doesn't ride in a sleigh anymore. He drives a 2008 Nissan Altima. *vroom vroom*

[Ihateyoumike]

Benefits of Praising and Worshiping God
(Obviously these are only benefits if God exists)
Focusing on what is good (God, in this case) keeps us motivated to be good ourselves.

I do not believe in a god. However, I have the ability within myself to focus on what is good. I take care of myself the best I know how. I love my family, and would do anything for them. I have never abused a child, nor have I hit a woman. I have never raped anybody. I have never killed anybody. I have only been in a couple physical alterations, and in every one, the other guy threw the first punch. I have not ruined my life with drugs, although I have experimented. I do not have any illegitimate children. I do not have unprotected sex. I even do my best do drive the speed limit.
I cannot figure any way that a belief in a god would help me be any more motivated to live a good life.

Reduces stress (God is more powerful than our problems, and will keep us safe)

I get stressed. I reduce stress by doing something outside. I reduce stress by playing a videogame. I reduce stress by talking directly with my brother, who is completely real. I reduce stress by trying to logically conclude a way to fix the problem which has me stressed. I reduce stress by reading. I have reduced stress in the past taking prescription drugs, although I do not like going that route.
I cannot figure out how asking for a problem to be solved for me, and either not receiving a response from anyone, or only getting a response in my head, would help me to reduce stress. If I want my stress reduced, I'm going to take action.

Instructional (many praise songs will remind us of important lessons)

Living life reminds me of important lessons. Learning from the past, or others mistakes, reminds me of important lessons. Reading books by real people, about real events, reminds me of important lessons. Communicating with people on a forum reminds me of important lessons. Thinking about important lessons reminds me of important lessons.
I cannot figure out what I would need praise songs for, when life teaches enough important lessons, you just need to be willing to pay attention.

Bonding with other Christians (Shared activity, etc)

You don't need a god to bond with christians. You need christians, real live people. You bond with them because of your belief system. Bonding with christians has no appeal to me. Bonding with other people does, if they happen to be christian, then so be it. We are a social animal. I choose to spend my time with people I love. I spend my time with people I trust. I spend my time on this forum having discussions with people who often share alot of my same views, because it is comforting to do so. However, I do not need an organized religion to tell me who to spend my time with. In fact, if you believe someone is inherently good simply because they share the same religious views as you, you are likely to be disappointed by more than a few of them.

There's likely other benefits as well, those are just the first that come to mind.

There may be. I can't think of any to help you out.

[Psalm23]

Between the ages of 9 and 16 I was forced to attend church, and even attended a private Christian school for grades 7 and 8. It was horrible, but I'm actually glad for it because it ensured that I learned enough to STAY AWAY later.

Now, there were plenty of things I learned that made me go  :crazy: , but he BIG one, the one I've never been able to get even a slightly acceptable explanation for, is this:

1)God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future.
2)He made Lucifer, his most beloved angel.

So, even BEFORE creating Lucifer, God knew that Lucifer would betray him and become Satan, Lord of Darkness (this dilemma spills over to Adam and Eve, too). What exactly was God's reasoning for this? I mean, he can't make mistakes, so if he went ahead and made Lucifer anyway, then that means he intended for everything to happen the way it did, right? The most common response I get is along the lines of God's ways being "higher than our ways", implying that it's not something we can understand because we're just simple, stupid humans. But if I made a robot knowing that a glitch in it would cause it to one day kill all humans, then I'd be a monster, an idiot, or insane; nobody would think that my reasoning was the result of superior thought processes. And it brings into question the Christian concept of love: If God already knew the outcome then Lucifer had no choice, nullifying another common explanation I get from Christians trying to take the blame off of God, "Lucifer had a CHOICE." Seriously, if Lucifer had not chosen to betray God, then the knowledge of the future God had would have been false, and God can't be wrong, can he? So, NO, Lucifer did not have a choice, there are even passages in the Bible which state that nothing can happen that God does not will to happen. So God willed his most beloved angel to become his worst enemy from the outset? Please, PLEASE stop telling me that God loves me.

Most of my family are devout Christians, and are constantly perplexed about my rejection of their religion, despite my frequent reminder about said dilemma and their inability to explain it.

Any Christians have a better explanation?

Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

[curiosityandthecat]

Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Easy to answer. Difficult to answer reasonably. See, here we have something called a loophole, and here's what's going to happen to that response when a Weeeee Little Bit of Reason and Logic is applied to the Old Man Bible:

[McQ]

"Created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him."

Do you have any idea how well that makes an argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, god? Who was Lucifer created by, the Three Stooges? Essentially, whoever created him would have to be a serious dipshit to create him perfect, but with flaws.

I can't help it......


.....I feel an eye roll coming.......

 

There! I stopped the eye roll with a good head bang. I feel much better!

[Sophus]

Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Uumm, yeah.... ever heard of Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction?

You see, Curio, as usually, makes a wonderful point. The Bible explains its contradictions by making more contradictions - but that's not very reasonable is it? I might as well say "The Artist painted a masterpiece and it was perfect in every way. Oh... but it was hideous. And before you blame the artist you should know that he had nothing to do with it." How's that possible? Because if the Bible says so it has to be true! Right?  roflol

[Psalm23]

"Created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him."

Do you have any idea how well that makes an argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, god? Who was Lucifer created by, the Three Stooges? Essentially, whoever created him would have to be a serious dipshit to create him perfect, but with flaws.

I can't help it......


.....I feel an eye roll coming.......

 

There! I stopped the eye roll with a good head bang. I feel much better!

Lucifer was created perfect, but he also found evil and he used that evil to rebel towards God.

I think you need to research, "Freewill" and then get back to me.

[Psalm23]

Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Uumm, yeah.... ever heard of Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction?

You see, Curio, as usually, makes a wonderful point. The Bible explains its contradictions by making more contradictions - but that's not very reasonable is it? I might as well say "The Artist painted a masterpiece and it was perfect in every way. Oh... but it was hideous. And before you blame the artist you should know that he had nothing to do with it." How's that possible? Because if the Bible says so it has to be true! Right?  roflol

Bible contradictions and supposed errors have been explained throughout the ages. The problem with many atheists is they like to visit websites run by other atheists that expose errors found within the bible, but they don't reveal the answer, how typical. It's easy to read the bible and become extremely confused, but that doesn't mean it's a contradiction or an error.

The Qu'ran says the Christian Holy Trinity is the, "the Father, the Mother of Isa, and The Holy Ghost." We all know the Trinity is the "Father, the son & the Holy Ghost." The Virgin Mary has never been part of the Trinity.

I wonder how many atheists in this forum have ever noticed that?

[McQ]

"Created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him."

Do you have any idea how well that makes an argument against an omnipotent, omniscient, god? Who was Lucifer created by, the Three Stooges? Essentially, whoever created him would have to be a serious dipshit to create him perfect, but with flaws.

I can't help it......


.....I feel an eye roll coming.......

 

There! I stopped the eye roll with a good head bang. I feel much better!

Lucifer was created perfect, but he also found evil and he used that evil to rebel towards God.

I think you need to research, "Freewill" and then get back to me.

Wrongo, chum! I already learned about it. What I'd like to know is how you interpreted Ezekiel 28:15 to mean that Lucifer was created perfect? Ezekiel 28:15 refers to Lucifer being perfect in his behavior, not in his being created perfectly. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha........

wait, where was I?

Oh yeah. Ezekiel. Regardless of how Lucifer was created....why would an omniscient, omnipotent being create another being whom he knew was flawed even before creating him?

Just one of the many imponderables in the big book of fairy tales.

[McQ]

Not a hard question, actually, very easy to answer.

Ezekiel 28:15 - "Lucifer was created perfect in all ways, but evil was found within him, and it was not placed there by God."

Uumm, yeah.... ever heard of Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction?

You see, Curio, as usually, makes a wonderful point. The Bible explains its contradictions by making more contradictions - but that's not very reasonable is it? I might as well say "The Artist painted a masterpiece and it was perfect in every way. Oh... but it was hideous. And before you blame the artist you should know that he had nothing to do with it." How's that possible? Because if the Bible says so it has to be true! Right?  roflol

Bible contradictions and supposed errors have been explained throughout the ages. The problem with many atheists is they like to visit websites run by other atheists that expose errors found within the bible, but they don't reveal the answer, how typical. It's easy to read the bible and become extremely confused, but that doesn't mean it's a contradiction or an error.

The Qu'ran says the Christian Holy Trinity is the, "the Father, the Mother of Isa, and The Holy Ghost." We all know the Trinity is the "Father, the son & the Holy Ghost." The Virgin Mary has never been part of the Trinity.

I wonder how many atheists in this forum have ever noticed that?

Ha! You're keeping me in stitches here, Psalm! Thank you. What is really "typical" is not atheists visiting other atheist websites, but you and so many others who come here assuming that none of the members here know the bible. Believe it or not (and don't let this get around or it'll ruin our reputation for being evil baby eaters!), some atheists used to be (dare I say it?) Born Again Christians! There, I've said it.

Some were even catholics (I know, it shocked me too). And, get this....some were even......

Pastors!

By golly, we could cite verse and chapter with the best of 'em. Led a lot of souls to christ myself, I did.  

[Sophus]

wait, where was I?

Oh yeah. Ezekiel. Regardless of how Lucifer was created....why would an omniscient, omnipotent being create another being whom he knew was flawed even before creating him?

Just one of the many imponderables in the big book of fairy tales.

Everyone knows God can't destroy the Devil for the same reason Batman can't kill the Joker. Fictional Superheros need villains, otherwise there's no story to tell.

Bible contradictions and supposed errors have been explained throughout the ages.

Yup, as I already stated, they certainly have... with more contradictions. When you try to justify a contradiction with another on what are you expecting? For two wrongs to make a right. You're not allowed to attempt logic anymore.

Seems to me if a perfect God wrote a perfect book it would be... well... perfect.


 

The problem with many atheists is they like to visit websites run by other atheists that expose errors found within the bible, but they don't reveal the answer, how typical. It's easy to read the bible and become extremely confused, but that doesn't mean it's a contradiction or an error.

Umm... no. I read the Bible and was convinced it was fiction by my own thinking.


By the way, I like how you completely ignored my argument by bringing up this irrelevant randomness. I must be doing my job.