Evidence 2 - Why (Non intelligent) Evolution is impossible?

[Messenger]

Plenty of crabs which are symmetrical exist and everything between crabs with giant, bizarre looking dominant claws and crabs with identically sized claws exist.

I think this thread is too intelligent for you
Only Squid understood me, but he is still trying to find an answer!
Yes, I know that crabs has symmetrical and unsymmetrical legs, this supports my claim
If Mutation is uncontrolled we must unsymmetrical, unfit, bizarre things that does not work at all

There are fossil records of all sorts of species that didn't work out.  As to finding fossil records of individual, one time only mutations - do you honestly think that everything that lives becomes fossilized?

Again you don't understand
If we found fossil of distinct species but all are fit (i.e. in the development line), with the same concept we must find other which did not work but not in the line of development

Those which are like this must be much much more than fit one, so we must find them more than we find others

P.S. your answer means you should vote, not yet found      (Maybe in dreams this will happen)

[curiosityandthecat]

I think this thread is too intelligent for you

Don't insult. It's unbecoming of you.

Ironically, there's nothing intelligent about believing in intelligent design.

[Squid]

Plenty of crabs which are symmetrical exist and everything between crabs with giant, bizarre looking dominant claws and crabs with identically sized claws exist.

I think this thread is too intelligent for you
Only Squid understood me, but he is still trying to find an answer!
Yes, I know that crabs has symmetrical and unsymmetrical legs, this supports my claim
If Mutation is uncontrolled we must unsymmetrical, unfit, bizarre things that does not work at all

Are you assuming that all mutations are lead to phenotypic change and must be deleterious?

There are fossil records of all sorts of species that didn't work out.  As to finding fossil records of individual, one time only mutations - do you honestly think that everything that lives becomes fossilized?

Again you don't understand
If we found fossil of distinct species but all are fit (i.e. in the development line), with the same concept we must find other which did not work but not in the line of development

Those which are like this must be much much more than fit one, so we must find them more than we find others

P.S. your answer means you should vote, not yet found      (Maybe in dreams this will happen)[/quote]

Organisms may be "fit" for their environment but we must also take into consideration that species themselves are not static nor is their environment - everything from climatic change, predation, migration, population radiation, drift and so forth all play a role.

[Kylyssa]

Yes, I know that crabs has symmetrical and unsymmetrical legs, this supports my claim
If Mutation is uncontrolled we must unsymmetrical, unfit, bizarre things that does not work at all

We do have unsymmetrical, unfit, bizarre things which don't work.  Unfit, bizarre mutations DIE and don't reproduce.  A whole species doesn't just all mutate at once leaving the possibility of millions of individuals which could get fossilized - mutations are (generally) individual glitches in the reproduction of gamete DNA.  A single creature born with a genetic mutation which makes it unfit isn't likely to become a fossil.  There are species and species of the unfit - the unfit DIE.  That's why they are unfit.  It's not because they aren't pretty to look at it's because they have some kind of deficit which either doesn't allow them to reach reproduction age, doesn't allow them to attract a mate, doesn't allow them to thrive enough to be fertile, or doesn't allow them to compete well enough with other animals which use the same resources.

 As to why animals are not born with, say, a leg on one side and something unrecognizable as a leg or upside down on the other side, I suggest you look on the Internet.  Such unfortunate creatures are born all the time.  In nature they DIE.    

There is a fossil record of all sorts of strange species which, in the long run, didn't work out - unless you have a whole zoo full of dinosaurs and sabre toothed tigers and a few million other extinct species in your back yard.

Individuals that don't work out don't leave a whole species behind as evidence.  If , say, a squirrel is born with a set of perfectly good legs on one side of the body and just little fisted claws on the other side of its body it would never reach adulthood.  Thus, no lopsided, fist-footed squirrel species.  Dead babies don't contribute to the gene pool.

There are plenty of oddball mutations that survive.  Only neutral, beneficial, or late life impact  mutations can get spread species wide.  There's a gene that increases a person's risk of breast cancer.  It's fairly widespread through the human race.  That's because it usually produces its fatal result well after sexual maturity.  

Albinism is another strange mutation which, while not immediately deadly can make such animals stand out to predators, die from sun damage, and can also impair the animal's ability to find mates if the species mating cues are visual.  However, there are some types of albinism which are fairly neutral though odd.  There are three entire breeds of cat which possesses an albinism  mutation.  These cats have temperature-sensitive albinism.  There is also an entire breed of rabbits which have temperature-sensitive albinism.   Temperature-sensitive albinism is carried genetically on the C-locus which is where the gene for complete albinism is also carried.  They all have a mutated form of tyrosinase, the enzyme responsible for producing melanin.  Their tyrosinase only functions at temperatures somewhat lower than the animal's core body temperature.  Thus the parts of the body which experience rapid heat loss such as the ears, noses, feet and tails of the animals darken.  

You would never find evidence of temperature-sensitive albinism or a breast cancer gene in a fossil.  The DNA is gone in fossilized carcasses.  

You look for big, coarse evidence when change occurs in tiny increments and sometimes in ways which don't survive in the fossil record.  The unsuccessful mutations which may have been species wide could be as subtle as temperature-sensitive albinism or a breast cancer gene.  Fossils don't come with a gene map so you could be looking at two profoundly different genetic lines when viewing two fossils with identical bone structures.  

The big, coarse evidence you are looking for such as horribly deformed species of animals - no, they don't exist.  Horribly deformed animals DIE and don't pass on their genes.  Animals which die before reproductive age don't pass on their genes to a whole species.  No mutations which are dominant which have fatal results before reproductive age can reach a species-wide distribution unless they are at the termination and are the reason for the termination of the species.

[Kylyssa]

think this thread is too intelligent for you

You are so very funny! I'm quite secure in my intelligence and won't get emotional and react as you'd like me to.

[SSY]

Dead babies don't contribute to the gene pool.

For some reason that really tickled me.  

[Asmodean]

But if you can not, you have only 2 choices
1-Evolution happened but intelligently (i.e. with a plan to evolve as it is now)
2-Evolution did not happen at all

ONLY those two choices..? The both your choices are wrong, so uh... Look for a third one. That would be like... Lemmethink... Evolution as it is presented today is a F-A-C-T

[Messenger]

Are you assuming that all mutations are lead to phenotypic change and must be deleterious?

I don't assume anything, and this is the idea
You must assume almost everything if it is unintelligent
Trying to imagine that mutation leads only/mostly to fit species is hilarious  :brick:

Mutation is just an imaginary reason for Evolution
They could not find any other reason so they accepted it, without giving any proofs

Also Theists are trying to refute the whole theory of Evolution and opposing many facts about development, there is no divine book that said specifically that Evolution did not happen (Except for human of course)

So my opinion is that Evolution may happened by intelligently

[Kylyssa]

Trying to imagine that mutation leads only/mostly to fit species is hilarious  

Why?  
Completely Unfit equals Death, Death does not equal Reproduction, Not Reproducing equals not Producing a Species.  

Here let's break it down so you could understand it if you weren't a fundie -
Mutations happen.
a. Some mutations are neutral, they neither help nor hinder an animal.
b. Some mutations are beneficial, they give an animal a slight edge.
c. Some mutations are harmful or fatal but not harmful until after the animal reaches maturity, they affect the animal during or after reproductive age.
d. Some mutations are harmful or fatal and affect the animal before reproductive age.
e. Some mutations are a combination of both beneficial and harmful or fatal.
f. Some mutations are dominant.
g. Some mutations are recessive.

Two examples of type a mutations are blue eyes or polydactylism.  
Two examples of type b mutations are lactose tolerance and HIV immunity.
Two examples of type c mutations are Huntington's chorea and Hemochromastosis.
Two examples of type d mutations are  Tay Sachs Disease and Canavan Disease.
Two examples of type e mutation are Sickle Cell anemia and pale skin.


These mutations all exist in the human gene pool.  The human species is both fit and unfit.  We carry mutations from distant or near ancestors which can cause deadly diseases or can cause life saving resistance to diseases or conditions.  We are the example you are looking for.  Nearly every other species also carries within its gene pool that which is fit and that which is unfit.

Regarding organisms with brand new, genetically dominant fatal defects in their genetic material - they will not reproduce.  You will not have an entire species of completely unfit organisms because to become a species reproduction must occur.  Again, dead babies don't contribute to the gene pool.

The dead do not reproduce without the help of modern science.

[Kylyssa]

Where are those Alien creatures?

P.S. I don't mean distinct animals, I mean not on the line of development
The Crab example supports my case very much, you can not deny unsymmetrical development
So where are all the unsymmetrical undeveloped animals  

Dead.  
Find any species which reproduces in big batches of offspring, such as crabs.  Now, watch as all the wee little eggs hatch - or don't hatch.  Now watch as most of those wee little crabs die and get eaten or get caught and get eaten.  The 'freaks' and unfit mutations are now likely all dead.  They either died in the egg or died soon after hatching.  

Now, how do the dead crabs reproduce?  Oh, that's right, they don't, because they're DEAD!

[Messenger]

Now, how do the dead crabs reproduce?  Oh, that's right, they don't, because they're DEAD!

Thanks, this is the answer that I wanted

Dead means they existed
You can not claim that all un-selected species died fast, because mutation is unintelligent, it is neither too bad nor too good

If you claim that say good mutations above 40% survived and under 1% died, then what will you do with 39%
i.e. mutations was not fatal or too bad, they must have survived for many generations  

[Squid]

Messenger, I really think you should give this site a look as I think you have some inaccurate ideas about genetics:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/

[Kylyssa]

Now, how do the dead crabs reproduce?  Oh, that's right, they don't, because they're DEAD!

Thanks, this is the answer that I wanted

Dead means they existed
You can not claim that all un-selected species died fast, because mutation is unintelligent, it is neither too bad nor too good

If you claim that say good mutations above 40% survived and under 1% died, then what will you do with 39%
i.e. mutations was not fatal or too bad, they must have survived for many generations  

They did survive.  They are the slightly different versions of things living now or they are the creatures of which no version still exists.

So, you are saying there is no record of any extinct species?  Every extinct species is what you are looking for.  What about the "giant" koalas which were about 30 kilos instead of 10?  They existed.  They were an offshoot of regular sized koalas.  They were an entire sub-species.  They probably required too much food to survive through lean times.  They are dead and they are a species mutated off of regular koalas.

Neanderthals split off from our common ancestor.  For whatever reason, they died off in areas where we didn't.  In that context they were unfit.  There's another entire 'unfit' species for you.

Where are the mutations, you ask - look around - we are and nearly every other species is.  The humans who weren't resistant to new strains of influenza died out.  If you could travel back in time with a handful of viruses that wouldn't hurt more than inconvenience a modern human you'd probably only need to travel a few hundred years before your handful of viruses would wipe out most of the human species.  There are human beings resistant to the AIDS virus.  If AIDS mutated and became airborne and more virulent for instance (so that even God fearing fundies could get it just by breathing) it would probably eliminate most of the population without the genetic resitance to it within a few hundred years.  The remaining human race would have the new gene and the 'unfit' portion would be gone.  And you could never separate the two by looking at them.

Can you tell from a mineralized skeleton that a child has Tay Sachs disease?  Can you tell from a mineralized bone if its owner was lactose intolerant or not?  Can you tell from a mineralized fossil what color a dinosaur's skin was or whether it had a propensity to develop a fatal disease at maturity?  Can you tell from a mineralized fossil if a dinosaur has a digestive disorder and if you can can you tell if it were genetic or not?  You can't even get DNA from mineralized bones.

Also, do you actually believe every living thing becomes a fossil?  Do you believe that a million years from now every living thing right now will be a fossil?  Living things are organic material.  Organic material decomposes, even bones and shells.  Organic material gets eaten, even bones and shells.  Fossilization is a rarity.  Even if the earth were only 6000 years old and nothing broke down and decayed leaving a record of every individual organism that lived we'd be buried under vast pile of corpses.  If every individual organism becomes a fossil, as Messenger-the-Christian-Fundamentalist insists it does then where are all the fossils of the last six thousand years?  

Where is the fossil to the pressure steamed salmon I ate last night, softened bones and all?  Will people thousands of years from now be able to extract its DNA and know its phenotype and health from what will be left of it after it exits my body and is further broken down by bacteria in the waste treatment plant?  In a year, all evidence of the salmon I ate last night will be completely indecipherable and spread for many miles around.  This is just a slightly faster version of what happens to the vast majority of living things after they die.  Even in a thousand years, the number of creatures living now that will leave recognizable evidence of their existence will be minute.

[Messenger]

They did survive.  They are the slightly different versions of things living now or they are the creatures of which no version still exists.

Sorry, I'm not looking for those on the correct line of development, if you have only that, then evolution is very intelligent

[Kylyssa]

They did survive.  They are the slightly different versions of things living now or they are the creatures of which no version still exists.

Sorry, I'm not looking for those on the correct line of development, if you have only that, then evolution is very intelligent

There is no correct or incorrect there simply is what is.
You are simply unable to comprehend that creatures with fatal mutations don't create entire species.  You are also unable to comprehend that there are millions of non-beneficial or harmful mutations which exist in living creatures today, in whole species and subspecies of creatures.  

The Giant koalas are an example of what you call an incorrect line of development.  They are a mutation of regular sized koalas that didn't work out.