If there is a god, can there be free will?

[BadPoison]

Excellent article. Thanks for posting this.

There were several points made by the author I hadn't considered.

[bowmore]

Excellent article. Thanks for posting this.

Glad you liked it.

[Wechtlein Uns]

maybe I can bring something to this argument. I am a Christian, so I will bring that view point to the answer. I think you are confussing knowledge with dictation. Knowledge of something doesn't make it happen. God is not bound by time so He is in all places and all times. So he knows what is happening, what has happened, and what will happen, but that in no way forces the connection that he makes things happen.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that if you know something is going to happen, it'll happen. Simply because if it didn't, did you really know?

[Sophus]

maybe I can bring something to this argument. I am a Christian, so I will bring that view point to the answer. I think you are confussing knowledge with dictation. Knowledge of something doesn't make it happen. God is not bound by time so He is in all places and all times. So he knows what is happening, what has happened, and what will happen, but that in no way forces the connection that he makes things happen.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that if you know something is going to happen, it'll happen. Simply because if it didn't, did you really know?

I believe he would agree with you there, but that would not mean that god is dictating what will happen simply because he knows it. It's foreknowledge of another's volition. Key word: volition. They were still making the choice. Like I said, we have complete knowledge of the choices of those in the past. Would that mean they didn't have freewill? Knowing is not dictating.

[bowmore]

Knowing is not dictating.

I agree, it just doesn't solve the incompatibility.

[Sophus]

I agree, it just doesn't solve the incompatibility.

You're really not making sense now. Hasn't your argument thus far been that if there is an omniscient God then there is no freewill?

In spite of what Wikipedia has to say, freewill can be boiled down rather simply. Are you making choices for yourself? For what reasons you make those choices are irrelevant so long as it is still your decision.

[BadPoison]

I agree, it just doesn't solve the incompatibility.

You're really not making sense now. Hasn't your argument thus far been that if there is an omniscient God then there is no freewill?

In spite of what Wikipedia has to say, freewill can be boiled down rather simply. Are you making choices for yourself? For what reasons you make those choices are irrelevant so long as it is still your decision.

But if every choice you're going to make is already decided then your choices can't be solely made internally. Another words, if something outside of myself knows every decision I will ever decide, then I can not have sole authority over my decisions. They would have to already have been decided.

A better way to state this might be that to god, we've already lived our lives, made our choices, and the end result has been ultimately decided. How is that free will?

I'm trying to demonstrate how if something external has complete foreknowledge of my actions even before I was born it's as if my life already played out - my free will be damned. And to the individual, of course he/she thinks they're making their own decisions, because in a very real way they are. You could attribute this to how our consciousness experiences time. The end result has just already happened to an omniscient being.

[Sophus]

A better way to state this might be that to god, we've already lived our lives, made our choices, and the end result has been ultimately decided. How is that free will?

This is the exact same crux I was trying to make except it's not that it has been decided. It is set and unchangeable, yes. But no one other than ourselves made our decisions. He will have known our decisions in advance, but, as we've just agreed upon, that knowledge does not determine what they will be.

Your argument appears to contradict itself.

[bowmore]

I agree, it just doesn't solve the incompatibility.

You're really not making sense now. Hasn't your argument thus far been that if there is an omniscient God then there is no freewill?

In spite of what Wikipedia has to say, freewill can be boiled down rather simply. Are you making choices for yourself? For what reasons you make those choices are irrelevant so long as it is still your decision.

If the future is fixed, omniscience is possible, but free will isn't.
If the future isn't fixed, free will is possible, but omniscience isn't.

I've never said it is the omniscience that dictates or that that is why free will is impossible.
It is the nature of the future which will allow one, and disallow the other.

That omniscience doesn't itself dictate how the future is fixed, is irrelevant.

[Sophus]

If the future is fixed, omniscience is possible, but free will isn't.
If the future isn't fixed, free will is possible, but omniscience isn't.

Omniscience could exist if the future is not fixed. "Fixed" would imply what? - one possible outcome? A result that could not change? Omniscience would know all possibilities but would know the one outcome that would take place. The foreseen outcome would support freewill without being subject to change as well because if one were to see into the future then it would be comparable to examining the past. The past is unchangeable.

That omniscience doesn't itself dictate how the future is fixed, is irrelevant.

However by implication you have said that the existence of omniscience would affect the nature of future. All you did was add a middle man in your process of thinking omniscience dictates the future.

[bowmore]

Omniscience could exist if the future is not fixed.

I disagree  

"Fixed" would imply what? - one possible outcome? A result that could not change? Omniscience would know all possibilities but would know the one outcome that would take place.

How does this make for a future that is not fixed? If the one outcome that would take place is known, it is the only possible one. All other possible ones actually occurring instead of it, would render the knowledge faulty. That's what I call a fixed future, or a less than perfect knowledge.

[Sophus]

If the one outcome that would take place is known, it is the only possible one.... That's what I call a fixed future....

But that's just it. It's not that it is the only possible one. There are many that are possible. It would just be one that would actually occur.
This statement of yours seems to say that you do believe omniscience dictates.

How does this make for a future that is not fixed?

That's all in the previous post. The past is fixed. The future isn't. By seeing into the future with omniscience you are actually looking into the fixed past which is our currently open-ended future.

[bowmore]

But that's just it. It's not that it is the only possible one. There are many that are possible. It would just be one that would actually occur.
This statement of yours seems to say that you do believe omniscience dictates.

Suppose at a point P in the future there are two possible choices (A and B), then that means the choice is not determined, if the choice is not determined, the actual choice cannot be known before P. If the choice is determined (let's say A) it can be known before P, but this invalidates B as a possibility. In other words the future is fixed to A.
I can see how you would call this dictated, but by no means is it needed that the omniscience itself dictates the choice. The omniscience only needs the know what is dictated.
So if omniscience doesn't dictate, it doesn't solve the incompatibility, because omniscience still needs a fixed future.

[BadPoison]

So if omniscience doesn't dictate, it doesn't solve the incompatibility, because omniscience still needs a fixed future.

Right, this is exactly the same point I was getting at.

[Sophus]

So if omniscience doesn't dictate, it doesn't solve the incompatibility, because omniscience still needs a fixed future.

It's not a fixed future. There is no such thing. It is a fixed past. Remember this god fellow is suppose to live outside of time too.

Even if a future were fixed it doesn't render you unable to make your own choices. It's nonsense from every angle.