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Abortion

Started by Titan, November 08, 2008, 05:59:34 PM

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Hitsumei

#105
March 22, 2009, 11:01:34 PM
Quote from: "Nulono"Um, no. Since egalitarianism is a social philosophy, "person" refers to whatever one considers a person to be. Egalitarians can disagree on what constitutes a person.

Precisely, which makes rubbish of all of your previous assertions, and demonstrates why your presupposition of your own pet opinions of what constitutes a person cannot be used honestly to ask loaded questions.

QuoteYou've still yet to answer my question as to whether infanticide is ethical.

Looks like you forgot what you just wrote. I did answer it, with a reductio ad absurdum. I do not think that infanticide it ethical in most situations, but that is irrelevant, as we are taking about abortion, as infants are homo sapiens in the first stages of life after birth.

As I have repeatedly told you. You are merely redefining terms so that you can make outlandish connections like this one.
"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." ~Timothy Leary
"Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution." ~Bertrand Russell
"[Feminism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their

Hitsumei

#106
March 22, 2009, 11:10:08 PM
Just to save you further semantic gymnastics, and the formulation of more loaded questions, I'll just accept your terms and answer.

Under your definition of a person I think that it is not ethically significant to terminate if certain conditions obtain. In the case of a birthed individual, when their cognitive faculties are destroyed to the extent that they no longer possess intellect, nor emotional awareness -- and have no possibility of recovery. In the case of pre-birth persons, to the extent that they have yet to develop a nervous system -- and with regards to fully formed mentally healthy individuals, when they are under enough physical and emotional pain to warrant the consent of their doctor.

Now you can tell me what a terrible nasty bitch you think I am for endorsing homicide and infanticide. If that it what you have been fishing for.
"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." ~Timothy Leary
"Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution." ~Bertrand Russell
"[Feminism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their

Nulono

#107
March 22, 2009, 11:12:54 PM
It's entirely relevant because you claimed that in order to be a person one must be self-aware. Infants are not self-aware. I myself was using a reductio ad absurdum. You have proved by point. QED

VanReal

#108
March 22, 2009, 11:14:08 PM
Quote from: "Nulono"You've still yet to answer my question as to whether infanticide is ethical.

No one on this board has mentioned anything about being for infanticide which is a separate issue entirely.  This thread was regarding abortion which is not the same thing.

Quote from: "Nulono"Infants are not self-aware.

Not true.
In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular. (Kathy Norris)
They say I have ADHD but I think they are full of...oh, look a kitty!! (unknown)

Hitsumei

#109
March 22, 2009, 11:27:00 PM
Quote from: "Nulono"It's entirely relevant because you claimed that in order to be a person one must be self-aware. Infants are not self-aware. I myself was using a reductio ad absurdum. You have proved by point. QED

Unless you thought that I held the position that all living things that did not constitute a full person have zero ethical value, then I don't see what it is you think that you demonstrated.

If you look at the stem cell thread you will see that I already outlined that infants do not constitute persons under a definition that requires self-awareness. Though as you can see by my last post where I outlined my views on the issue, my cut off point was when they develop a nervous system, not when they become self-aware.
"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." ~Timothy Leary
"Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution." ~Bertrand Russell
"[Feminism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their

Hitsumei

#110
March 22, 2009, 11:31:57 PM
Quote from: "VanReal"
Quote from: "Nulono"Infants are not self-aware.

Not true.

It's quite true, a child is not fully self-aware until roughly the age of five. Before the age of three they are not even aware that they are a separate and distinct thing from other things, and do not retain personalized experiential memories until some time around the age of three. That is why being able to recall events before the age of three is rare, and fractal.
"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." ~Timothy Leary
"Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution." ~Bertrand Russell
"[Feminism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their

VanReal

#112
March 23, 2009, 02:17:56 AM
Quote from: "Hitsumei"
Quote from: "VanReal"
Quote from: "Nulono"Infants are not self-aware.

Not true.

It's quite true, a child is not fully self-aware until roughly the age of five. Before the age of three they are not even aware that they are a separate and distinct thing from other things, and do not retain personalized experiential memories until some time around the age of three. That is why being able to recall events before the age of three is rare, and fractal.

Being fully self-aware and self-aware are not the same.  Sure they think the world revolves around them and don't see/understand individuals and their needs separate from their own, but they are aware of being.
In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular. (Kathy Norris)
They say I have ADHD but I think they are full of...oh, look a kitty!! (unknown)

Hitsumei

#113
March 23, 2009, 02:30:07 AM
Quote from: "VanReal"Being fully self-aware and self-aware are not the same.  Sure they think the world revolves around them and don't see/understand individuals and their needs separate from their own, but they are aware of being.

No, they simply aren't. Children begin developing self-awareness at about the age of two, and have a fully-developed self-awareness by about the age of five.

Here is a psychology paper that outlines the development of self-awareness in children. We are by no means fully mentally developed when born, especially our species, being that one of the ways evolution has solved birthing trouble on account of our species' massive heads is to give birth pre-maturely.
"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." ~Timothy Leary
"Marriage is for women the commonest mode of livelihood, and the total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution." ~Bertrand Russell
"[Feminism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their

Nulono

#114
March 23, 2009, 02:40:55 AM
When it comes to infantal development, humans are one of the slower species.
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