Abortion

[Titan]

I don't know if I want to debate this fully or not, I kind of just want to get your opinions on it.

My simple question is this: Why do atheists and Christians disagree so much on this issue? If both believe that the right to life > the right to choice shouldn't we simply see a greater correlation between our definitions of when life starts. Shouldn't we see some atheists who believe life starts at conception and some Christians who believe life starts at birth?

Edit: I said when the mother's life is in danger only. I feel that the idea of life beginning at conception has the fewest logical problems when extended to a definition of life.

[curiosityandthecat]

I must say, I like how you constructed this poll.

I guess I'm a Utilitarian, to a point.  

[Titan]

Well thought out and may I just say that I love that you provide links within your post...it makes it so much easier.

Like I said, I don't want to argue so I won't. But let me just say that if I did want to argue, I don't know if I would be able to against your point, that was very convincing.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'm an ex-Catholic and I suspect that has something to do with the way I feel about abortion ... broadly speaking I am anti-abortion, that said I do not, would never, take away the right of a woman to choose. My position on abortion seems to be quite unusual for an atheist and I am curious how Dennis K feels about it as he's ex-Catholic too.

Obviously (?) I believe an abortion is OK if the mother's life is in danger and in cases of rape ... the first is self-evident in that it's a simple choice, mother or baby and given that the mother is alive now, almost certainly has a higher survival potential that the baby and for various other reasons the mother gets priority. The second is fairly much so; it's not the poor baby's fault but neither is it the mother's so again it is a simple choice ... the mother could well end up hating the baby. Still any mother who elects (through free choice not religious, cultural, financial or societal pressure) to carry a rape baby to term has my respect. Birth defect babies are a problem for me as it reveals what I consider to be a character defect in me ... if the child is likely to have an unacceptable birth defect, I would want that child aborted. I genuinely believe I would have problems bringing up a badly disabled baby but there are some disabilities I would care less about. I think that stems from the fact that what a parent strives for is an independent self-supporting child (it's kinda the job description of parenthood, my job is to equip my child with all the tools and skills necessary to survive & thrive in what is often a hostile society) so a child that is so disabled that it will never achieve that independence scares the hell out of me. I can't rationally explain that, it just does ... as it happens my children are both relatively normal but, being a teenager at Uni and one at Grammar, it's hard to say for sure but parents that are willing to do what I can't also get my respect. Personally I don't believe the inability to support a child is a good enough reason to abort (there are childless couples crying out for babies for one) and the whole idea of partial-birth abortion is absolutely repugnant to me.

In essence I have philosophical problems with abortion ... we live in a society that decrees that murder is wrong, one where the dividing line between who is human and who is not appears to be largely arbitrary I am forced to ask what right we have to terminate a potential human being? I genuinely believe that the human foetus is human from the point of conception and I would defy anyone to define a point at which a foetus "becomes" human that is not arbitrary (even mine, at conception, is problematic). I have problems with the way abortion seems to be used by some as a means of post-coital contraception and consider that an utterly barbarous concept falling well into what seems to be the general view these days i.e. that of rights without responsibility. I would support a legal requirement to ensure women considering it are aware of exactly what will happen to them and to the foetus because of it but I would not be happy if that became an excuse to bully women out of the decision to abort. That said, although I view the issue from a moral perspective, I do not hold there is fixed morality so would consider it absolutely wrong to legislate morality.

Finally I strongly believe, despite all the above, that the woman has the right to decide (within the law) whether she should or should not abort (for whatever reason, my views on this issue are mine and mine alone) and as such I voted "During the first two trimesters" since that roughly equates to the current state of UK law.

Kyu

[Titan]

That was well put Kyuuketsuki, I respect an opinion as well thought out as that one.

[Asmodean]

I have no right to tell someone what to do with their bodies. Thus, as long as the kid is a part of that woman's body, I'm ok with her aborting it for whatever reason. I would suggest giving it up for adoption after full term if the mother was 6-7 months pregnant before deciding to abort but ultimately, I would not try to make that decision for her.

[Whitney]

I chose "when the mother can't support the child (and above)." A more fitting answer for me is that I don't think it is my place to make that decision for other women.

Btw, my mom is a Christian and she doesn't think the fetus should be valued as a person till it reaches the third trimester.  She thinks very young and/or unwed (non-committed relationship) mothers would be doing nothing wrong if they had an abortion and that they should have an abortion if they won't be able to take care of the kid.  She also thinks that special needs babies shouldn't be carried to term.  She does realize that each person is different and in some cases it may be emotionally better for the woman to not abort due to personal beliefs.

I agree with my mom's view on the issue...which is interesting because we never really discussed abortion till after I had already came to my own conclusions.  While I do understand that adoption is an option (I was adopted), I also understand that minority women or women carrying special needs babies may have a hard time finding someone who is willing to adopt their baby and there are too many unwanted kids already in the system that need loving homes.

[Will]

I don't like abortion, but I like forcing a woman to come to term even less. I support Roe v. Wade. I support a woman's right to choose. Are fetuses alive? I have no idea. Are pregnant women alive? Absolutely.

[rlrose328]

It bugs me when pro-life folks call pro-choice people "pro-abortion" in an effort to obfuscate the issue.

NO ONE is pro-abortion... no one is grabbing pregnant women off the street and forcing them to abort their fetuses.  NO ONE wants a woman to have an abortion.

As for what I believe... I believe that a collection of cells has fewer or no rights compared to those rights of the mother.  She's an adult, someone with life on this planet.  Why does a group of cells and up to a small fetus have more rights than the adult woman?  Makes no sense to me to force a woman to be a human incubator, especially if the child is the result of a violent act.  I will not make that choice for an woman.

It is NOT birth control... if you can't be responsible enough to use birth control, then you should bear the child, if only to give it up.  I hate serial abortions because of laziness.

It's a gray area and it is impossible to make it black and white.

[Titan]

As for what I believe... I believe that a collection of cells has fewer or no rights compared to those rights of the mother. She's an adult, someone with life on this planet. Why does a group of cells and up to a small fetus have more rights than the adult woman? Makes no sense to me to force a woman to be a human incubator, especially if the child is the result of a violent act. I will not make that choice for an woman.

I think in most people's ideology the right to life trumps the right to choice. Therefore, this entire discussion comes down to what do you describe as life?

[rlrose328]

What I believe is really irrelevant to the topic at large.  Would it be when the fetus can survive outside the womb?  Or when the brain can function?  When it can feel pain?  When its heart begins to beat?  Conception?

I believe it is at the very least when the brain can function, if not when it can survive outside the womb.  Before that, it is little more than a tumor feeding off of the host.  Sometimes that feeding is by choice... other times, it is the choice of the host to rid itself of the tumor.

Don't get me wrong... I'd give a limb to have another child myself... I was an only child of an only child.  I never wanted to have just one.  But it wasn't in the cards.  My body sustained one life in addition to mine ONCE and that was it.  

I do not now, nor have I EVER believed that the mere existence of a fetus trumps a woman's right to choose to have the child.  Never, as far back as I can remember.

And from my own discussions with people I know (by no means scientific), that is the dominant philosophy.  So if you have statistics that state your POV, I'd love to see them.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Obviously no one can actually ask the foetus (at least at our present technological level) but I would imagine the foetus can feel pain quite early ... my understanding is that natural pain relief hormones (?) go massively up in response to trauma as early as 20 weeks into pregnancy therefore it is reasonable to assume that the foetus reacts to its surroundings at that point and likely feels some degree of pain. I believe UK law for abortion species 24 weeks or less so to my mind those two are out of kilter and it emphasises, as mentioned earlier, the fact that any distinction between human and non-human is arbitrary at best.

Kyu

[Titan]

I do not now, nor have I EVER believed that the mere existence of a fetus trumps a woman's right to choose to have the child. Never, as far back as I can remember.

And from my own discussions with people I know (by no means scientific), that is the dominant philosophy. So if you have statistics that state your POV, I'd love to see them.

I don't think we can come to a rational conclusion about the truth of the matter by looking at opinion polls, but I nonetheless think that many, if not most people, agree with you in some quantity or another.

It is just that replace the word "fetus" in your sentence with "child" and you will see the other side of this. If you define a fetus as a future child and someone who is alive then the whole perspective changes.


Quick attempt at an injection of humor here...have you guys seen this http://www.photobasement.com/the-7th-trimester/

[rlrose328]

I do not now, nor have I EVER believed that the mere existence of a fetus trumps a woman's right to choose to have the child. Never, as far back as I can remember.

And from my own discussions with people I know (by no means scientific), that is the dominant philosophy. So if you have statistics that state your POV, I'd love to see them.

I don't think we can come to a rational conclusion about the truth of the matter by looking at opinion polls, but I nonetheless think that many, if not most people, agree with you in some quantity or another.

It is just that replace the word "fetus" in your sentence with "child" and you will see the other side of this. If you define a fetus as a future child and someone who is alive then the whole perspective changes.

Yes, both sides of the argument use the semantis game to bolster their argument.  Pro-choice use "fetus"  so it's not as personal and pro-life use "baby" or "child" so it IS personal.  I can divorce myself from the semantics game and look at it rationally.  Use "fetus" or "baby" or "child" and I'll feel the same regardless.  The woman's existing rights trump those of the unborn, especially in cases of rape, incest or when the child has significant defects and it would be a massive hardship for the family to care for the child.  

Please understand that I'd give a limb to have another child and I grieve for the lives wasted from abortion.  HOWEVER, I will always continue to support a woman's right to choose.

The only roadblock I have is when the father doesn't want to abort but the mother, who will carry the child, does.  What then?  I don't know.

[PipeBox]

I don't like abortion, and we need to do everything we can to avoid it.  But I voted the same way as Laetusatheos for similar reasons.

It's a pretty well-made survey, Titan.