The Quran & Science

[risky]

THE EXISTENCE OF SUBATOMIC PARTICLES
In ancient times a well-known theory by the name of ‘Theory of Atomism’ was widely accepted. This theory was originally proposed by the Greeks, in
particular by a man called Democritus, who lived about 23 centuries ago. Democritus and the people that came after him, assumed that the smallest unit
of matter was the atom. The Arabs used to believe the same. The Arabic word dharrah most commonly meant an atom. In recent times modern science has discovered that it is possible to split even an atom. That the atom can be split further is a development of the 20th century. Fourteen centuries ago this concept would have appeared unusual even to an Arab. For him the dharrah was the limit beyond which one could not go. The following Qur’aanic verse
however, refuses to acknowledge this limit: “The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come The Hour’: say, ‘Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will
come Upon you â€" by Him Who knows the unseen â€" From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there
anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.’” [Al-Qur’aan 34:3]

This verse refers to the Omniscience of God, His knowledge of all things, hidden or apparent. It then goes further and says that God is aware of
everything, including what is smaller or bigger than the atom. Thus the verse clearly shows that it is possible for something smaller than the atom to exist, a fact discovered only recently by modern science.

Source: http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf

[Jolly Sapper]

So what you're saying is, that the Quran isn't based on anything holy or supernatural, but instead based off of whatever relevant ideas may have been around at the time?

[risky]

So what you're saying is, that the Quran isn't based on anything holy or supernatural, but instead based off of whatever relevant ideas may have been around at the time?

I don't understand how you deduced that.. from that which I posted... lol It can only be 'holy' or 'supernatural' if the common belief was that an atom was the smallest thing & the Quran states otherwise, then over 1,000 years later we realize that there are things smaller then an atom, it can only reaffirm that the Quran came from some 'supernatural' power..

[curiosityandthecat]

I don't understand how you deduced that.. from that which I posted... lol It can only be 'holy' or 'supernatural' if the common belief was that an atom was the smallest thing & the Quran states otherwise, then over 1,000 years later we realize that there are things smaller then an atom, it can only reaffirm that the Quran came from some 'supernatural' power..

I'll jump back in here and refer back to my original post: being close to a scientific truth by guessing doesn't make the source supernatural; it makes it observant. It's a metaphor. Take Rome. Rome is a city. A city consist of quarters or sectors. Each quarter consists of smaller areas. Each area consists of a number of blocks. Blocks consist of houses. Houses consists of walls. Walls consist, occasionally, of bricks. Bricks consist of smaller bits of clay and other materials. And so on, and so on, and so on. Even those writing the Quran could see the metaphor and its pervasiveness in the world, even their own bodies (person, limbs, fingers, etc).

Essentially, "It was written in a book 1,000 years ago and was proven true today, therefore it was the source was supernatural" is such a horrendous leap and absurdity that it makes S5 Modal Logic look intuitive. (Did I explode the geek-o-meter on that one?   )

Think about it. It's like saying that a caveman was inspired by God for knowing fire is hot even though he had no knowledge of chemical oxidation and exothermic reactions.

[Jolly Sapper]

Just for the record, I have no clue how you read this quote as meaning that there is something smaller than an atom.

“The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come The Hour’: say, ‘Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will come Upon you â€" by Him Who knows the unseen â€" From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.’” [Al-Qur’aan 34:3]

From my reading of this, "The least little atom ....Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater..." seems to support the idea that the atom was the smallest unit of matter.  Now if there was something about an atom being divisible in a later part of the Quran, then maybe you should have used that instead of the quote quoted above.  

I'm not terribly sure, but anybody with an understanding of math could see that in theory anything can be divided into smaller parts.  I'm pretty sure there were a fair number of people in the Arab world during the time the Quran was created that understood how to use the process of division.

From a mathematical viewpoint, ANYTHING can, in theory, be divided into something smaller.  Any one unit can mathematically be divided in half:

1/2=.5
.5/2= .25
.25/2=.125
etc.etc.

So not only could there have been the very observable fact that a whole unit of any thing is made up of smaller parts, like a person is made up of hands and feet and skin and organs, etc., but there is what looks to me (a non-mathematician) proof that in theory anything can be divided into something smaller than the original whole unit.  

Now I can understand your point, risky, that the Quran ITSELF may not have anything in it that says, "Screw science, be ignorant of the world around you" but there doesn't seem to be anything scientific in the Quran.  None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove the Quran can function as a science textbook.    

Curiosityandthecat keeps telling you why your argument is failing, so let me echo the sentiment with an example:

Give two people (Person A and Person B) a multiple choice question about something they know nothing about, give them only two choices as possible answers where ONLY ONE of the choices correctly answers the question.  Each person takes a guess, and chooses an answer that is different from the other person (Person A picks choice A and Person B picks choice B).  One of them will have chosen the correct answer.  Was the person who chose the correct answer gifted by divine wisdom or was it chance?  This is a process that can be repeated, the data recorded, and a conclusion developed.  This is impossible with the Quran because the Quran is static.  (Unless there is some way to see into parallel universes, if they exist, and compare those Quran's with their respective universe's scientific achievements.)

Being that the Quran was written by a person, it was probably greatly influenced by contemporary (at the time) ideas and thoughts.  Maybe the middle east was such a big part of trade on the continent that lots of people brought in all the ideas from the rest of the world (practically anyway) and they found themselves somewhat written into the Quran, or influencing the way the Quran was written.  There are still other reasons besides being the divine word of God, for the Quran to make vague mentions that could possibly agree with what has been scientifically proven.

[risky]

“Just for the record, I have no clue how you read this quote as meaning that there is something smaller than an atom.”

“The Unbelievers say, ‘Never to us will come The Hour’: say, ‘Nay! But most surely, By my Lord, it will come Upon you â€" by Him Who knows the unseen â€" From Whom is not hidden The least little atom In the Heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less Than that, or greater, but Is in the Record Perspicuous.” [Al-Qur’aan 34:3]

“nor anything less Than that” anything less then an atom would mean something smaller/less then an atom can exist… was that helpful? I mean the verse states it quite blatantly.

 

“I'm not terribly sure, but anybody with an understanding of math could see that in theory anything can be divided into smaller parts. I'm pretty sure there were a fair number of people in the Arab world during the time the Quran was created that understood how to use the process of division.

From a mathematical viewpoint, ANYTHING can, in theory, be divided into something smaller. Any one unit can mathematically be divided in half:

1/2=.5
.5/2= .25
.25/2=.125
etc.etc.”

“In theory”… But the common belief again was that an Atom was the smallest unit in existence, the reference to Democritus further shows that. In any case the Quran does not state it as a ‘theory’ but rather, saying There Is Smaller.

“Now I can understand your point, risky, that the Quran ITSELF may not have anything in it that says, "Screw science, be ignorant of the world around you" but there doesn't seem to be anything scientific in the Quran. None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove the Quran can function as a science textbook.”

O.o I said the quran was a science textbook? Or can function like one?

What I’ve been arguing is, that the Quran has scientific statements that have only been recently discovered and Would Not have been Known a 1,000+ years ago.

“None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove”

Why would ‘God’ describe a process as to allow us to prove them true? lol Why would ‘God’ have too? lol We as humanity have done the processes required to prove them true and the results coincide with what the Quran states.

“Being that the Quran was written by a person, it was probably greatly influenced by contemporary (at the time) ideas and thoughts. Maybe the middle east was such a big part of trade on the continent that lots of people brought in all the ideas from the rest of the world (practically anyway) and they found themselves somewhat written into the Quran, or influencing the way the Quran was written. There are still other reasons besides being the divine word of God, for the Quran to make vague mentions that could possibly agree with what has been scientifically proven.”

The idea’s and thoughts of the time did not correlate with what I’ve posted, look back in history, I’ve posted the beliefs/theories at the time anyways which do relate to my postings. Again your argument can only be that it was mere chance/luck that he was 'crazy enough' (If you lived at that time of course) to get those verses written down when all the beliefs/popular notions at the time were to the contrary.

 As to ‘vague mentions’ the verses are not vague, they are pretty much direct statements.

Here is an example of vague, the 7 heavens in the Quran refers to the 7 layers of the atmosphere.. ; ) because if there are 7 heavens and 7 layers of the atmosphere obviously the too relate to each other. (I'm not arguing this, nor do i believe this. This is an Example of Vague) What I’ve been posting is quite the contrary.  He will resurrect each one of you and even get Your Own specific fingertip right, (b/c everyone has a distinct one, no two can match.) There is a barrier between the two seas. Every celestial body has an orbit. Those Are Direct & Precise statements within the Quran… How you consider something like that as Vague is beyond me.

[risky]

“being close to a scientific truth by guessing doesn't make the source supernatural”

Everything I’ve posted has not been “close to a scientific truth” it has been ‘Spot on’ with Scientific Truths.

“guessing”

The probability that all 'his guessing's' that i've posted so far were correct… the percent of that possibility keeps getting lower and lower. He has a 99% probability that he’ll get one thing right, oh he’s got one well its 74% now.. 49% now.. 24% now…etc etc it gets lower and lower and will continue to get lower as i post more, leaving one only to wonder…

Think about it. It's like saying that a caveman was inspired by God for knowing fire is hot

What I’ve posted is nothing of that sort; you make such a gross comparison to say the least.

[curiosityandthecat]

Everything I’ve posted has not been “close to a scientific truth” it has been ‘Spot on’ with Scientific Truths.

Cherry picking. Here's a list of (mostly) scientific absurdities, impossibilities and falsehoods found in Quran.

[spoiler:37ce8apd]1. And He taught Adam all the names."
      Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31

   2. Humans created from a single man. 4: 1

   3. The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31

   4. Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) But, in fact, such acts are common in many other species. 7:80-81

   5. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124

   6. When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143

   7. Humans created from a single man. 7:189

   8. Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4

   9. "The sun ... runneth unto an appointed term."
      The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth. 13:2

  10. The sun rises and sets at particular places on a flat earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring. 18:86, 90

  11. Most scholars consider Dhu'l-Qarneyn ("The Two-Horned Lord") to be Alexander the Great, who is here presented as a devout Muslim. 18:83-98

  12. The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71

  13. The sun "floats" in an orbit around the earth. 21:33

  14. Allah created all animals. Some with no legs, some with two, and some with four. (Most animals have six legs. Did Allah forget about the insects?) 24:45

  15. The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61

  16. "He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term."
      The sun orbits the earth. 35:13

  17. "The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38

  18. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
      The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40

  19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

  20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
      Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

  21. "Who hath created seven heavens ... Canst thou see any rifts?"
      Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks. 67:3

  22. Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5

  23. At the end of the world the earth with the mountains will be lifted up and crushed with one crash. 69:14

  24. "And hath made the moon a light"
      This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16

  25. Someday the stars will fall. 81:2

  26. Humans are formed from "a gushing fluid" that issues "from between the loins and the ribs." 86:5-7

  27. Allah dealt with the owners of the elephant by sending swarms of "flying creatures". 105:1-3

From http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/science/long.html[/spoiler:37ce8apd]

The probability that all 'his guessing's' that i've posted so far were correct… the percent of that possibility keeps getting lower and lower. He has a 99% probability that he’ll get one thing right, oh he’s got one well its 74% now.. 49% now.. 24% now…etc etc it gets lower and lower and will continue to get lower as i post more, leaving one only to wonder…

And wonder, we do!  

What I’ve posted is nothing of that sort; you make such a gross comparison to say the least.

I'll give you that one. But, honestly, that's how far-fetched your assertions seem to me (and I would venture to say most of us).

My point is this: those writing the Quran were not in a vacuum. People are essentially the same animal now as they were at the time of the Quran's inception, supposedly ~7th century CE. The authors could just be a combination of smart and lucky, though some of these claims are a real stretch... I offer:

Verses:
91:1 By the sun and his brightness,    
91:2 And the moon when she followeth him,
Claim:
The moon has no light of its own and that what we see is the reflected light of the sun.

Verse:
21:30 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water ? Will they not then believe ?
Claim:
The universe came about by a "big bang" or disintegration billions of years ago.

The whole list here. What I find amazing is that someone is willing to make these leaps but can't make the leap that the whole concept of a god is an externalized, socially-constructed father figure intended to maintain order and provide leaders with power.

Hundreds of years before the Quran was written, there were Greeks making observations just as impressive and just as "spot on" as those supposedly made by the prophet. Here are a couple examples from an incomplete list,

Anaxagoras of Clazomenae (480-430 B.C.). Greek philosopher. Believed that a large number of seeds make up the properties of materials, that heavenly bodies are made up of the same materials as Earth and that the sun is a large, hot, glowing rock. Discovered that the moon reflected light and formulated the correct theory for the eclipses.

Anaximander (610-545 B.C.).Greek astronomer and philosopher, pupil of Thales. Introduced the apeiron(infinity). Formulated a theory of origin and evolution of life, according to which life originated in the sea from the moist element which evaporated from the sun (On Nature). Was the first to model the Earth according to scientific principles.

The only difference between these Greeks at the writers of the Quran (aside from the more than thousand-year gap, in the case of Anaximander) is that we don't consider their books holy or their sources supernatural.

[risky]

Fantastic, thx for the list, I’ll go through each of them one by one.
(*~Note: If you could refer to past posts for ones I've already answered/responded to, I'd appreciate it : )

1.   And He taught Adam all the names."
Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31

Hey 'God' is 'God', He can do 'anything' right?

In any case if you know about Belief of Adam in Islam, it's 'believed' he was the first human created... lol so how many Animals existed on Earth with the 'beginning of the human race'? (Now of course this is only plausible for people who do believe this lol [I do believe in Evolution but Man from Apes? Not. lol])

2. Humans created from a single man. 4: 1

“O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.” 4:1

Yeah the belief that humans all originate from Adam, considering the majority of the world believes that or rather the three Large Monotheistic religions..uhm.. yeah the majority of the world lol (or a fairly large % if not the majority ; )

3. The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31

 How that is an impossibility/falsehood is beyond me.

4. Homosexual acts are condemned as unnatural. (Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?) But, in fact, such acts are common in many other species. 7:80-81

“We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” 7:80-81

It never states it is ‘unnatural’ but implies that.

5. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124

Wonderful claim, could you prove for me that Crucifixion Never occurred in Egypt?

6. When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143

“And when God appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Moses fell down unconscious.  Then, when he recovered his senses he said: ‘Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

“This lesson is clear.  If no man can stand the presence of God, and even mountains collapse in ruin at his presence, then how can an earthly thing be God?  How can a manufactured idol be God?  How can a living human being be God?  They cannot.  So Moses repented from asking God this favor…”
Source: http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/405/

*Note: the Mountain is not named.*
 If you think its absurd so be it.

7. Humans created from a single man. 7:189

Already explained this above.

8. Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4

“When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.” 12:4

Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Ceros, Eris, and Pluto. 8+3 = ?

In any case this translation is in the minority, the majority of translations refer to them as Stars.

9. "The sun ... runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth. 13:2

“Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” 13:2

How this verse even relates to the sun orbiting the earth is beyond me? Please help me out.

10. The sun rises and sets at particular places on a flat earth. At the westernmost point on earth, the sun sets in a muddy spring. 18:86, 90

“Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.” 18:86

“‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’...So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain”

Source:  http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm

“Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.” 18:90

How either of those verses claim the sun rises on a flat earth is beyond me.

11. Most scholars consider Dhu'l-Qarneyn ("The Two-Horned Lord") to be Alexander the Great, who is here presented as a devout Muslim. 18:83-98

That is mere speculation; most scholars consider this? Absolute nonsense, show me that ‘most’ do.

12. The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71

lol again, “Wonderful claim, could you prove for me that Crucifixion Never occurred in Egypt?”

13. The sun "floats" in an orbit around the earth. 21:33
 
Really? Lets take a look at the verse.

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.” 21:33

Woah! no where does it say the sun orbits the earth, what a claim!


14. Allah created all animals. Some with no legs, some with two, and some with four. (Most animals have six legs. Did Allah forget about the insects?) 24:45

“And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.” 24:45

What he stated does not limit what he created rather he gives some examples; it states “of them there are some that…” Illogical argument.

15. The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61

“Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein…”

Define 'Fixed':securely placed or fastened or set. ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... gle+Search )
Define 'Abode:residence ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search )

So "the earth a fixed abode" means, a securely placed residence.

.. now of course, this is what the translator meant because it is in line with other Translations of the verse, You only take it out of 'context'. In what it is meant to say..

For example:

"Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not." 27:61

"Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!" 27:61


16. "He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun orbits the earth. 35:13

“He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.” 35:13

*yawns* please explain how this verse states that the sun orbits the earth for me…

17. "The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38

“Mustaqarr” may mean
(1) a limit of time, a period determined or
(2) a resting place or quiescence;
(3) a dwelling place.

“I think, the first meaning is best applicable here. But some commentators take the second (a resting place). In that case, the simile would be that of the Sun running a race while he is visible to us, and taking a rest during the night to prepare himself to renew his race the following day.” (Yusuf Ali’s tafseer, PG 1178. “The Holy Quran: Text, translation, and commentary”)

18. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40

This verse does not state the sun orbits the moon, it is pure stupidity to say the verse claims that.

19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

Jonah was swallowed by a Whale (Hoot = Whale in Arabic)

20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

“Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.” 41:12

How this is absurd is beyond me once again… lol

21. "Who hath created seven heavens ... Canst thou see any rifts?"
Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks. 67:3

“Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?” 67:3

Not really, lol
Define 'Rift': gap or break ( http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... 1861702748 )
So do you see any Gaps or breaks in the 'sky'? If you wish to equate, the 'Seven Heavens' to the Sky.

22. Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5

“And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.” 67:5

Point blankly, a matter of faith.

23. At the end of the world the earth with the mountains will be lifted up and crushed with one crash. 69:14

“And the earth with the mountains shall be lifted up and crushed with one crash,” 69:14

The end of time, what more can be said?

24. "And hath made the moon a light"
This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16

“The author of this claim assumed that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him had thought that the moon is further in distance to the earth than the stars to the earth.  He presented Noble Verses 71:15-16 which state "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?."  

What the author didn't understand from these Noble Verses is that Allah Almighty claimed that the sun is the source of light "sirajan" and the moon is the reflection of light "Nooran".  The moon is not the source of light.  

Now, in Noble Verse 71:16 "and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?" indicates that the light whether comming from the sun (the source) or the moon has no limits.   The light can travel from one heaven to the other freely.  

The Noble Verses did not say that the moon belongs to the seven heavens or is further in distance to the earth than the stars to the earth.  The Noble Verses clearly talked about the light that comes from the sun and from the moon traveling freely through the seven heavens "...a light in their midst... (71:16)".”
http://www.answering-christianity.com/q ... ld=71%3A16

25. Someday the stars will fall. 81:2

“And when the stars fall,” 81:2

In relation to the End of time/Day of Judgment.

26. Humans are formed from "a gushing fluid" that issues "from between the loins and the ribs." 86:5-7

"‘Let now man think from what he is created - he is created from a drop, emitted from a space between the backbone and the ribs’.

Today we have come to know, the genital organs- the testes, in the males, and the ovaries in the female, in the Embryonic stage - they develop from a space, where the kidney is present today, between the backbone and the 11th and 12th rib. Later on the testes they descend to the inguinal canal, into the scrotum - and the ovaries in the female to the true pelvis.

But in the embryonic stage, it is in the space, which the Qur'an speaks about…‘between the backbone, the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib’. Even in the adult life after the Genital organs they descend - yet they receive the blood supply - the nerve supply and the lymphatic drainage from the same space between the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib

http://www.hmc.psu.edu/childrens/health ... hidism.htm "

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm

Woah another Scientific Finding in the Quran, thanks a ton bro [/quote]

Perfect, I'm glad I'm making people think
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Hundreds of years before the Quran was written, there were Greeks making observations just as impressive and just as "spot on" as those supposedly made by the prophet. Here are a couple examples from an incomplete list,

Anaxagoras of Clazomenae (480-430 B.C.). Greek philosopher. Believed that a large number of seeds make up the properties of materials, that heavenly bodies are made up of the same materials as Earth and that the sun is a large, hot, glowing rock. Discovered that the moon reflected light and formulated the correct theory for the eclipses.

Anaximander (610-545 B.C.).Greek astronomer and philosopher, pupil of Thales. Introduced the apeiron(infinity). Formulated a theory of origin and evolution of life, according to which life originated in the sea from the moist element which evaporated from the sun (On Nature). Was the first to model the Earth according to scientific principles.

Anaxagoras  considered these 'seeds' that 'make up the properties of materials' that make up the celestial bodies to be: "...seeds (spermata) or miniatures of wheat and flesh and gold in the primitive mixture..." O_o interesting theory... really.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaxagoras

Anaximander: "...according to Anaximander life originated from the moisture that covered the earth before it was dried up by the sun. The first animals were a kind of fish, with a thorny skin (the Greek word is the same that was used for the metaphor 'the bark of a tree' in Anaximander's cosmology). Originally, men were generated from fishes and were fed in the manner of a viviparous shark. The reason for this is said to be that the human child needs long protection in order to survive. Some authors have, rather anachronistically, seen in these scattered statements a proto-evolutionist theory. "

Source: http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/anaximan.htm

Impressive theory, really 'Spot on' with modern science

The only difference between these Greeks at the writers of the Quran (aside from the more than thousand-year gap, in the case of Anaximander) is that we don't consider their books holy or their sources supernatural.

You fail to mention all their theories were extremely flawed... = \ (At least the ones you've mentioned.)

[curiosityandthecat]

Risky, hopefully I'll get to come back to this thread later when I've got time at work.

It's been very enjoyable, and I'm learning a lot about the Quran that I hadn't thought about before (I'd read it, but not analyzed its scientific claims). It'll take a lot more than a couple lines of poetry about celestial bodies to change my mind about the "supernatural" creator, but it's interesting, nonetheless!  

[Jolly Sapper]

I'm going to cherry pick here...  The theme that I'm going for is that you've gone from defending your thesis of "Quran as scientific textbook" to something else.  

2. Humans created from a single man. 4: 1

Yeah the belief that humans all originate from Adam, considering the majority of the world believes that or rather the three Large Monotheistic religions..uhm.. yeah the majority of the world lol (or a fairly large % if not the majority ; )

Belief without proof (being faith) is the antithesis of the scientific method, correct?  So this goes against the original thesis (if I understood the beginning of the thread anyway) that the Quran was completely steeped in science.  It doesn't matter if the "majority" or a large chunk of the "minority" believe in it, it wasn't a concept or idea that evolved through the application of the scientific method.  

6. When Allah revealed himself to Moses, the mountain (Mt. Sinai?) came crashing down. 7:143

“This lesson is clear. If no man can stand the presence of God, and even mountains collapse in ruin at his presence, then how can an earthly thing be God? How can a manufactured idol be God? How can a living human being be God? They cannot. So Moses repented from asking God this favor…”
Source: http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/405/

*Note: the Mountain is not named.*
If you think its absurd so be it.

So which parts of the Quran are metaphorical and which are literal?  If the Quran is supposed to be a scientific text, then there should be some indication in the book that informs the reader exactly which parts are poetic metaphor and which are literal facts. Is there some kind of symbol in the Quran that is used throughout the book that tells the reader that the passage above is metaphorical, but the passages you've quoted in earlier posts about the celestial bodies are to be read literally?

3. The Quran repeats the silly story about Cain and Abel (though they are unnamed in the Quran). 5:27-31

How that is an impossibility/falsehood is beyond me.

In the Christian bible, Cain and Abel fought over the affections of a woman (who spontaneously and without explanation appeared in the story.)  This kinds hurts the whole, "Everybody came from Adam" concept as well as your thesis that the Quran is a book of scientific facts.  Its kinda odd that the bible takes the time to list Adam and Eve, the garden of Eden, the Fall, their children Cain and Abel, but suddenly gets very vague as to where Cain and Abel's wives came from... unless I'm not reading the bible looking for anything literal.

5. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment, unknown in Egypt at the time this story supposedly occurred. 7:124

Wonderful claim, could you prove for me that Crucifixion Never occurred in Egypt?

The Egyptians kept lots of records of about the goings on of the Egyptian kingdom.  I'm pretty sure there would be some record, somewhere, that listed executions and how they were carried out.  The Romans kept lots of records about the goings on in Rome and I'd bet a dollar it is from these records that historians figured out that in Roman controlled areas, crucifixion was a fairly common punishment/form of public execution.  While the Christian bible, through omission, makes it seem like the crucifixion was a special punishment.

7. Humans created from a single man. 7:189

Already explained this above.

I thought humans were created from dirt?  At least that's what the Christian bible says.  The rest of the human species came about through man AND a woman, I'm not sure what the probability that spontaneous generation can happen through masturbation but its gotta be pretty small.

8. Joseph saw in a dream eleven planets. Does this mean that according to the Quran there are eleven planets in our solar system? 12:4

“When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.” 12:4
Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Ceros, Eris, and Pluto. 8+3 = ?

In any case this translation is in the minority, the majority of translations refer to them as Stars.

First, what definition does the Quran give regarding "planet?"  Second, Pluto lost its status as a planet not to long ago didn't it?  Why only mention one moon?  There are a great many more in this solar system.  While we're at it, where is the asteroid belt described in the Quran, since Ceres is found within the asteroid belt?  Last, if other translations of the Quran use "stars" instead of "planet" then there directly contradicts your original thesis that the Quran is a scientific text.

“Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” 13:2

How this verse even relates to the sun orbiting the earth is beyond me? Please help me out.

To me this verse is too vague, it doesn't give enough information as to whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun.  This lack of specifics regarding something that is a fundamentally accepted bit of astronomy regarding our solar system, doesn't give your thesis any support.

“Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.” 18:86

“‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’...So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain”

“Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.” 18:90

How either of those verses claim the sun rises on a flat earth is beyond me.

Holy shiznu!  I agree!  :banna:  :banna:

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.” 21:33

Woah! no where does it say the sun orbits the earth, what a claim!

"All swim along, EACH in its rounded course."  This verse doesn't say "All swim along, the planets in a rounded course" or "All swim along, each in its rounded course, except the sun, which sits in the center and is the point that the other planets rotate around."  

Be careful, Risky, you're starting to use Atheist logic there.  You're starting to demand explicit proof of a claim before accepting its veracity.  

“And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.” 24:45

Well if the Quran is to be read as a literal scientific text, then why not have some mention of bugs?  What's the point of specifically mentioning the number of legs on the animals that were created but forget to mention 1 leg (for things like clams and snails), 6 legs (for things like insects), or 8 legs (for the arachnid and octopus)?  This doesn't directly contradict your thesis, but it doesn't help it much either.

“Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein…”

Code Select Expand

   [url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fixed[/url]
fixed Listen to the pronunciation of fixed
Pronunciation:
    \ˈfikst\
Function:
    adjective
Date:
    14th century

1 a: securely placed or fastened : stationary b (1): nonvolatile (2): formed into a chemical compound c (1): not subject to change or fluctuation <a fixed income> (2): firmly set in the mind <a fixed idea> (3): having a final or crystallized form or character (4): recurring on the same date from year to year <fixed holidays> d: immobile, concentrated <a fixed stare>2: supplied with something (as money) needed <comfortably fixed>
â€" fixed·ly Listen to the pronunciation of fixedly \ˈfik-sÉ™d-lÄ", ˈfikst-lÄ"\ adverb
â€" fixed·ness Listen to the pronunciation of fixedness \ˈfik-sÉ™d-nÉ™s, ˈfiks(t)-nÉ™s\ noun
I have to agree with Risky's point that the verse might not mean that the earth, as a planet, is not moving through the cosmos.  That being said, this verse doesn't support your thesis either.  The geography of the world is constantly changing (erosion, tectonic movements, earthquakes, glaciers, ecosystem failures all change the way the planet looks).  I can agree with your "securely placed residence" but the rest of the verse, if taken literally, goes against science.  The hills weren't "placed" so much as "pushed" up from underneath, or gouged out by glacial activity and rivers form when there is enough flowing water to move softer sediment (and other light strata) enough to create a trench that keeps the water mostly in the same place.  

“He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.” 35:13

*yawns* please explain how this verse states that the sun orbits the earth for me…

If you expect me to accept your thesis that the Quran is a scientific text, then the wording should be different to accurately reflect reality.  Like saying that the Moon and the Earth "each runs its course for a term appointed."  Now if I'm to read the Quran as poetry then there would be no argument, but its not sounding like it agrees with science.

17. "The sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him." 36:38

“Mustaqarr” may mean
(1) a limit of time, a period determined or
(2) a resting place or quiescence;
(3) a dwelling place.

“I think, the first meaning is best applicable here. But some commentators take the second (a resting place). In that case, the simile would be that of the Sun running a race while he is visible to us, and taking a rest during the night to prepare himself to renew his race the following day.” (Yusuf Ali’s tafseer, PG 1178. “The Holy Quran: Text, translation, and commentary”)

Once again, it seems like you have forgotten the whole point of this thread.  It was to prove to us that the Quran was a scientific text because the verses described what can be proven scientifically.  You are defending the verse, not by pointing to science, but by the author's and translators poetic license.  

18. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The sun and the moon orbit the earth. (Well at least Allah and Mo are half right here!) 36:40

This verse does not state the sun orbits the moon, it is pure stupidity to say the verse claims that.

Scientifically, the sun overtakes the moon every time there is a solar eclipse, right?  I guess its okay for the moon to be in the sky during the day (as there's no direct mention in the verses you posted).  Let me defend the "stupidity."  Things orbit around a fixed point.  If you don't know where the fixed point is, it can be really difficult to be able to determine if an object is actually "orbiting."  So the implication is that the sun and moon orbit (which is true, the moon orbits the earth and the earth orbits the sun, and the sun orbits around the milky way galaxy) but without defining what they orbit around, its pretty easy to guess that the author might have thought they orbited the "fixed" point of the earth.

19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

Jonah was swallowed by a Whale (Hoot = Whale in Arabic)

This also begs the question, "Which type of whale WOULD be most likely of swallowing a human being?"  I'd think killer whales, being carnivores would be most likely to EAT a person.  They have teeth, they eat meat, and they can swallow a seal whole if they feel like it but they tend to rip and tear.  
Seaworld's website about killer whales
Now, I'm going to assume that whale anatomy is similar to human anatomy.  SO when you aren't eating anything, the tube to your stomach tends to stay pretty tightly closed.  Keeps your breakfast from jumping out to say "HI" every time you take a step.  Assuming that a whale works the same as people, I'd imagine that the muscles in a whale are enough to crush a human being ( they might need stronger muscles to keep their stomach juices from bubbling out when they are diving).  There would be no air to breath inside of the throat or stomach of a whale either.  So, as a work of fiction this works for the Quran.  As a work of non-fiction, this works against the Quran.

20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

“Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.” 41:12

How this is absurd is beyond me once again… lol

It isn't that the verse is absurd, its that the verse gives an explanation contradictory to science.  Your thesis was that the Quran was compatible with science out of divine intervention and not dumb luck or due to the influences of contemporary society on the author.  This hurts the idea that the Quran is to be taken literally instead of figuratively.  If things can be taken figuratively, then there is the potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation, which makes it hard to treat as a work of science.

I think I've spent too much time on this post... so I'll stop here.

[risky]

“Now I can understand your point, risky, that the Quran ITSELF may not have anything in it that says, "Screw science, be ignorant of the world around you" but there doesn't seem to be anything scientific in the Quran. None of the quotes you've posted from the Quran describe a process by which to test the ideas that you claim prove the Quran can function as a science textbook.”

O.o I said the quran was a science textbook? Or can function like one?

What I’ve been arguing is, that the Quran has scientific statements that have only been recently discovered and Would Not have been Known a 1,000+ years ago.

I don't know if you read this or not... lol but scroll above if you don't take my text for it ) in any case I was refuting the site once again.

19. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. 37:142

Jonah was swallowed by a Whale (Hoot = Whale in Arabic)

Now, I'm going to assume that whale anatomy is similar to human anatomy. SO when you aren't eating anything, the tube to your stomach tends to stay pretty tightly closed. Keeps your breakfast from jumping out to say "HI" every time you take a step. Assuming that a whale works the same as people, I'd imagine that the muscles in a whale are enough to crush a human being ( they might need stronger muscles to keep their stomach juices from bubbling out when they are diving). There would be no air to breath inside of the throat or stomach of a whale either.

Uhh… similar to a humans anatomy o_O what makes you think that? lol

Logically it would probably be the biggest whale out there.. considering that, I’d guess a blue whale… Bas Allahu Allam..

“Blue whales eat by filtering food from the water through plates called baleen in their mouths that take the place of normal teeth. They have large pleated grooves on their underbellies that expand, allowing the mouth to take in huge amounts of water, which is pushed through the baleen, leaving the food behind.”
Source: http://www.australianfauna.com/bluewhale.php

What is “Baleen”?

“These whales do not have teeth, but instead have rows of baleen plates in the upper jaw â€" flat, flexible plates with frayed edges, arranged in two parallel rows, looking like combs of thick hair. Baleen is not bone, but is composed of keratin, the same substance as hair, horn, claws and nails. Whales use these combs for filter feeding. Whales are the only vertebrate group to use this method of feeding in great abundance (flamingos and crabeater seals use similar methods, but do not have baleen), and it has allowed them to grow to immense sizes. The blue whale, the largest animal ever to have lived, is a baleen whale.”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baleen

No teeth but Hairy Combs? lol

How he could have survived inside? God is ‘All powerful’ he can do ‘anything’ so being that, it was a ‘miracle’ he survived inside.

20. "We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

“Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.” 41:12

How this is absurd is beyond me once again… lol

It isn't that the verse is absurd, its that the verse gives an explanation contradictory to science. Your thesis was that the Quran was compatible with science out of divine intervention and not dumb luck or due to the influences of contemporary society on the author.

Contradictory with science? How so? Lol really explain further…? If ‘God’ created everything and he created the Stars… how is that contradictory with science? Just because it does not explain the ‘steps’ to the creation a star does not mean it is unscientific… or ‘contradictory’ why would God go through all the ‘steps’ for us?

[McQ]

Risky, just FYI, but your logic on which whale would have swallowed Jonah is just one of the many areas where you are taking huge leaps that don't make sense. In fact, the Blue Whale would be one of the less likely candidates to swallow a human, or anything more than a few inches in cross-section. Its gullet is very small, even though its mouth is huge. It would not be capable of swallowing a solid object as large as a human.

Also, the orbits you are talking about for planets are not circular, so if your book says they are circular, it is wrong, and so is your argument regarding it being correct about the orbits. The planets, and everything that orbits anything else in space, travel in ellipses. Far from circular paths.

[risky]

Risky, just FYI, but your logic on which whale would have swallowed Jonah is just one of the many areas where you are taking huge leaps that don't make sense. In fact, the Blue Whale would be one of the less likely candidates to swallow a human, or anything more than a few inches in cross-section. Its gullet is very small, even though its mouth is huge. It would not be capable of swallowing a solid object as large as a human.

Also, the orbits you are talking about for planets are not circular, so if your book says they are circular, it is wrong, and so is your argument regarding it being correct about the orbits. The planets, and everything that orbits anything else in space, travel in ellipses. Far from circular paths.

I never said circular, nor did the translation of the Quran say circular your placing text onto my fingers... It said rounded that being said what is elliptical?

Elliptical:  Of, relating to, or having the shape of an ellipse.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elliptical
______________________________________
Definition of Ellipse:
“An ellipse looks like a slightly flattened circle. A plane curve. Orbits take the form of ellipses.”
http://math.about.com/library/ble.htm

Rounded:curving and somewhat round in shape rather than jagged
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rounded

round·ed:having curved, not straight or angular, surfaces or edges
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... 1861706245
______________________________________

Ellipse: "A plane curve."
Rounded: "having curved" & "curving and somewhat round in shape rather than jagged"

So that is not a contradiction but a misconception of what Rounded means.

I hope that cleared it up for you.

As for the blue whale you've got a point i didn't do much 'searching'/'researching' (as far as the internet goes lol), but i could go on posting 'theories' as to what it was that could have swallowed a human & Show you what is actually able to swallow a human. Nonetheless whatever it was, it was a 'miracle' lol how else could he have survived inside? I don't think i was arguing that this 'miracle' was totally inline with science and it would be a stretch to claim it so, i guess if i made it seem so.. it was b/c i got caught up in refuting the site lol . In any case, believing that it happened would be called 'faith'. And there are more then just this that require 'faith' if you believe in the Quran; Allah (God) splitting the Sea.., the story of the youth in the cave (I could throw theories on this one ; ) , etc etc.. It goes on. and of course religion comes with faith... lol... I don't think the purpose of this thread was for dissecting 'miracles' though lol

[risky]

Risky, hopefully I'll get to come back to this thread later when I've got time at work.

It's been very enjoyable, and I'm learning a lot about the Quran that I hadn't thought about before (I'd read it, but not analyzed its scientific claims). It'll take a lot more than a couple lines of poetry about celestial bodies to change my mind about the "supernatural" creator, but it's interesting, nonetheless!  

cheeyaa. =P