Catholics and the supernatural

[zorkan]

If somebody could prove the supernatural they would be overnight celebrities.
Newspapers would run the scoop of all time.
The only thing interesting about the supernatural is that it's still to be proved, and I'm still waiting.

I was a catholic only because of one side of my family and I was brainwashed.
Had I arrived into any other religion I would likewise have been mind altered.
It's likely that all religions originally worked off mind altering drugs.

I'll let you describe how bread and wine is changed into body and blood.
It's not up to me to prove that god exists.
It's up to theists or deists to do that, and they can't.
The bible is myth built on earlier myth, then altered when interpreted and translated.
Eventually it becomes irreversibly mutated.

As I was not there to witness any of the events from 2000 years ago, why should I believe a single word of it?
Religion can only work on faith because it is not historical fact.
They are after your money and your blood.
Who knows how many people have been killed by Christianity alone?
My own estimate is somewhere between 50 and 100 million.

[Icarus]

That's a conservative estimate Zorkan. Religious wars along with mythical beliefs about health care, foods and potions have accounted for a whole bunch of fatal results. Witch trials, executions of blasphemers, and all that sort of thing have washed away some of the fringe practitioners as well. Then, of course, there was and is,the political part of wiping out "wrong Believers".  Romans versus Christians come to mind.....and then Constantine decided to use religion to his and the Empires benefit.

[zorkan]

I accept that we will never know the number of unnecessary deaths that can be linked to Christianity.
The Taiping revolt in China alone can be traced back to a leader who proclaimed himself the younger brother of Jesus Christ.
The death toll is unknown but 30 million is mentioned. Could be as high as 100 million.

A few other examples
"The Thirty Years' War was initially a religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants in the Holy Roman Empire, causing an estimated 4.5 to 8 million deaths"

Aztecs wiped out by Spanish invaders. Possibly 20 million deaths.

Crusades. Up to 9 million deaths.

English Civil War led to 200,000 deaths.
"King's perceived sympathy for Catholicism, which conflicted with the Puritan desire for religious reform, and the fear that the King's ceremonial church practices were "popish".

[GreenBlaze]

I accept that we will never know the number of unnecessary deaths that can be linked to Christianity.
The Taiping revolt in China alone can be traced back to a leader who proclaimed himself the younger brother of Jesus Christ.
The death toll is unknown but 30 million is mentioned. Could be as high as 100 million.

A few other examples
"The Thirty Years' War was initially a religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants in the Holy Roman Empire, causing an estimated 4.5 to 8 million deaths"

Aztecs wiped out by Spanish invaders. Possibly 20 million deaths.

Crusades. Up to 9 million deaths.

English Civil War led to 200,000 deaths.
"King's perceived sympathy for Catholicism, which conflicted with the Puritan desire for religious reform, and the fear that the King's ceremonial church practices were "popish".

Ok. I will say to see as you seem perhaps in rare moments to be seeking something spiritual. For me, I had my faith since a child. At 16 I started seeking it out a deeper experience myself. I had to commit to it for about a year and really believe before God let me see anything supernatural. I wish you well and I don't know how you will end up or what you want when you are elderly...but some people return to a faith they once had when they are older. They can be places to meet up others to when you are older socially...so I say that to anyone for older age perhaps keep that in mind and good luck.

[billy rubin]

greenblaze, i am open to spiritual experience. i have no preconceptions.

whatis it that you fnd that dstinguishes your own spirityual ex[perience from imagination?

what do you experience that is dfferent in any material way from a self-delusory belief in a theology created by ordnary human beings?

how do you establish the truth of your belief structure? to you?

[zorkan]

Ok. I will say to see as you seem perhaps in rare moments to be seeking something spiritual. For me, I had my faith since a child. At 16 I started seeking it out a deeper experience myself. I had to commit to it for about a year and really believe before God let me see anything supernatural. I wish you well and I don't know how you will end up or what you want when you are elderly...but some people return to a faith they once had when they are older. They can be places to meet up others to when you are older socially...so I say that to anyone for older age perhaps keep that in mind and good luck.

Only fact I know about people of faith is that you cannot argue with them.

I have been approached in the street by a Christian telling me I'll be burning in hell if I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour.
According to another, my late mother as a non-believer is already burning in hell.
I might reply that on death my body will be cremated and should there be a soul, I wouldn't expect it to burn.

Logic does not enter into the religious mind.
btw, I am elderly. 76 in 3 months.

[GreenBlaze]

Ok. I will say to see as you seem perhaps in rare moments to be seeking something spiritual. For me, I had my faith since a child. At 16 I started seeking it out a deeper experience myself. I had to commit to it for about a year and really believe before God let me see anything supernatural. I wish you well and I don't know how you will end up or what you want when you are elderly...but some people return to a faith they once had when they are older. They can be places to meet up others to when you are older socially...so I say that to anyone for older age perhaps keep that in mind and good luck.

Only fact I know about people of faith is that you cannot argue with them.

I have been approached in the street by a Christian telling me I'll be burning in hell if I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour.
According to another, my late mother as a non-believer is already burning in hell.
I might reply that on death my body will be cremated and should there be a soul, I wouldn't expect it to burn.

Logic does not enter into the religious mind.
btw, I am elderly. 76 in 3 months.

zorkan you come across much younger than 76,  hope you still have a lot of mileage left. Me, I am 52. I am a Christian and was so as a child, but got to know more about it myself at 16.

The church has changed a lot many church's have. I was baptised in a Catholic church as a child and went to a catholic school to 19. I don't disagree with anything they do the religion-but I like to be more independent and like praying more directly to God myself and somewhere they started saying have to go through the Saints more and it is not true-I was not taught like that at school-and am non demontional today and still go to a Catholic church at times my primary school. I go to an Anglican church today.

Many of the parishioners are 60 plus in my church and some are really nice. The Catholic and Anglican service are quite similar. I can tell you my rector at church doesn't preach about burning in hell and I have been going there since 2022. I went from 2014-2016 and travelled and returned in 2022. In none of this nobody preached about burning in hell in the Anglican church I attended. My rector is so passionate about preaching about Jesus' love and forgiveness. When I have gone to here about things she told me to focus on love. Times are changing. Also, I have attended a catholic church and the priest was so humble and was calling himself a sinner and preached to about God's love.

You have to want it or yourself or be curious.

Some people of any faith you can definitely debate with them...we are all different. God is the true judge and it is not a great idea to tell people they will be burning in hell.

Me, I have trained as a hospital volunteer chaplain and can work with people of any faith or no faith.  At work some of the men aged 65 seemed really grumpy. Whatever faith you have, you can try and do some self care and treat yourself humanely and with respect.  Developing spiritually independent of religion too if you want can help this.

[zorkan]

zorkan you come across much younger than 76,  hope you still have a lot of mileage left.

At 75, I am younger then 76.
Hate to think what that's like.
Even more of my bits will fall off.
Like anyone else I cannot outrun body entropy.

The Catholic and Anglican service are quite similar.

Wars have been fought and many killed over the Eucharist.
Is bread and wine changed to body and blood, or not?
The Catholic church works off one thing only, and that is the so called Last Supper which is only a common Jewish feast. They hardly mention anything from the OT apart from Isaiah, written 800 years before with a mention of Immanuel and not Jesus as the coming saviour.

I can tell you my rector at church doesn't preach about burning in hell and I have been going there since 2022. I went from 2014-2016 and travelled and returned in 2022. In none of this nobody preached about burning in hell in the Anglican church I attended. My rector is so passionate about preaching about Jesus' love and forgiveness.

The idea of hell is supported by the NT.
What do think the gospels work off other than saving you from hellfire?
"In the New Testament, hell is described as a place of eternal punishment, characterized by "outer darkness," "unquenchable fire," and "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
Btw, the gospels are not the truth as most Christians believe.
Each is narrative of Jesus of Nazareth, containing plenty of contradictions.

You are lucky that the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was banned.
It reveals the young Jesus as a child murderer who also blinded his neighbours.
To prove his supernatural powers he made real birds from mud.

My quotes of the week for what you will never hear in church:
Luke 11:21
"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."
Luke 14:26
"Anyone who comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".

[GreenBlaze]

Zorkan, I know that the Bible teaches that there is a heaven and hell. Some who are Catholics believe in purgatory also. Teaching is changing how it approached to the mercy of God, grace and love to. Jesus said that anything than man does is forgivable to him except blasphemy to the Holy Ghost. You mentioned it yourself some people do death bed conversions and believe that if they adopt the faith at the last moment if they believe and his blood will obliterate this where they have fallen short. This is not in Christianity but some people think there will be like a limbo hell, for those who were good people, but just didn't have the faith-this is Dante's version of hell and the Bible talks about the pit of hell for demons etc.

I mentioned about the Anglican versus the Catholic church as I have been in the Anglican church more of late and so can say myself they have moved on and do not preach on hell like old church's used to. You have observed this is an old Catholic church, they may have all moved on to.

I myself have had healing which I never asked for in an Anglican after taking the Eucharist. People have reported to that limbs have been grown from taking it. It is about faith and the will of God for someone's life. It does indeed get blessed the Sacraments from the Holy Spirit, either God's or the ministers doing it.
I will link my experience-
https://www.racheltestimony.com/2025/06/miraculous-interventions-with-holy.html

[zorkan]

...some people think there will be like a limbo hell...
...after taking the Eucharist. People have reported to that limbs have been grown from taking it

Then there should be no need for limbo dancers to be out of work.