On the subject of atheism.

[Icarus]

Z, if you are into reading, try also The End Of Biblical Studies: Hector Avalos. ISBN 978-1-59102-8.

 Avalos, like Ehrman, is a professor of theology at a large university.  He is at Iowa State University, Ehrman is at North Carolina University.

[Asmodean]

Scientists who think the universe might have evolved include Lee Smolin and Stephen Hawking.

"Evolved" may be a bit of a loaded term to a naïve (with regards to "science-speak") reader. It does not assume Creation, though it may point to a beginning.

A fair few years ago now, I was pretty into the Big Bounce hypothesis of the origin and fate of the Universe. Totally wrong about that, but that's not the point. It ties everything together rather neatly in the Universe expanding, then contracting until a critical mass is reached, then expanding (blowing up, if you will) ad infinitum. Within the scope of infinity, that would be a revolving system. Within the scope of one crest-to-trough or trough-to-crest period, however, it could either be a devolving or an evolving system.

I take no notice of Dawkins on this issue because he says god would have to be more complex than his creation.
Better to reason that the universe started with simplicity and evolved from there, like the way biological evolution started. Could have been a warm little pond, an undersea vent, an alien virus, one cell finding its way into another.
The laws of physics may also have evolved. I understand this was Hawking's final theory.

Not to speak for the good professor, but I assume his logic is as follows; there is "nothing." (Quotation marks to denote a specific use of the word, with reference to the degree of relative complexity) A universe is created. If it was created by the application of intelligence or will, then there must exist a system capable of said intelligence and/or will. That system is comparatively complex. Enough so to require an explanation all its own, and implausible due to its comparative complexity.

That said, I'm kind-of more interested in that last sentence there. What was it you propose to have been Hawking's "final theory?" The theory of the Evolution of Physics? Is that... I mean... I'm me, and honestly, I don't even know where to start. Would you clarify?

Then the universe might have been created by a white hole in the centre of a black hole from another universe.

Maybe too technical a point, but the hypothetical white hole lies "beyond" the singularity, which is what lies at the centre of a black hole, though I understand that your mileage may vary what with ring singularities and such like. In any case, it would possibly be a little more accurate to then think of the Universe as the expanding emissions plume from a black hole elsewhere. That said, this is a few ticks above my pay grade and highly hypothetical besides, so inexpert opinion and ought to be weighted as such.

[zorkan]

I'm referring to a couple of books I've picked up recently, but will admit they are still work in progress for me.
On The Origin Of Time by Thomas Herzog, who is writing about Hawking's final theory.
White Holes by Carlo Rovelli. Could white holes explain dark matter?

Icarus: Thanks, I'll look for that book.

[Asmodean]

That's some fine reading material.

The theory Hertog's referring to though is not one of evolution of physics, but indeed of the cosmological origin of time. I'm not too sold on their [Hawking's et al.] approach, but that is not to say that it is without merit. In any case, "every" research physicist worth his monthly wage evolves the science of physics. Hawking was by far not the first, nor will he by far be the last.

[zorkan]

I've picked up, but did not buy, a copy of Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.'
He soon refers to this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

Which of course Christians would laugh at, but my understanding is there were any number of god-men in antiquity.
For a start, all Jews believed they were the sons and daughters of god.
For a full list I recommend Bible Myths by Thomas Doane. May not be his real name because it was published in the 19th Century. It's also a book of comparative religion.

[Icarus]

Not to overload the thread subject but......Another book that I find worth reading is;
And Man Created God. By Selina O'Grady. Sub title; A history of the world at the time of Jesus.

This is an exploration of the history of Christianity. O'Grady does it quite well.
ISBN 978-1-250-04407-5

[zorkan]

I will also look out for that book. Thanks.
Here is a pdf of Bible Myths which I can assure you Christians want to avoid.
I have my own facsimile copy.

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/31885/pg31885-images.html

[zorkan]

Happy the Christian / pagan festival of Xmas now over.
With all those messages of peace and goodwill, love thy neighbour and other stuff, we can now get back to the nightmare that different interpretations of the god of Abraham have unleashed in a small place called Gaza.

[Asmodean]

Yeah, the whole Middle East thing... That takes more than religion, though religion does do its utmost to not-help.

Personally, I'm kind-of glad that 2023 is on its way to history. All in all, a bit of a mixed year in my book. Mom died, I took a financial hit or three, bought a new(-er) car, which is just adorable... Well, for a land yacht. The left shoulder is deteriorating... What else? Read some good books, watched some truly awful and a couple of great films... Played Dungeons and Dragons now that I'm way too big and scary to bully for my nerdy ways.

Yeah... That was my year. Going to try to recover some finances, travel a bit and do some cool projects for work in 2024. First though, perhaps just go fishing with a friend. That sounds like a fine idea.

[billy rubin]

i havent been fishing in fifty years, except for trying to catch dolphins off the stern of a mudboat with a bent nail and shrimp for bait. not very successful. ive seined for madtoms in shallow riffles, but that's not really fishing.

fishing always brings back the memory of smells-- nutrient-rich fresh water, or atlantic tide pools. my sense of smell mostly disappeared years ago, and i find it interesting how much of my perception of the world formerly came through olfaction.

[Icarus]

Has anyone else watched YouTube vids with Emma Thorne?  She is a really cute young woman who is a Brit,  a lesbian, an ascetic, also a profane atheist.

Yikes, I think I have a crush on her...... alright it is only a grandfatherly kind of crush.

[Icarus]

Here is Emma. you can skip forward to about 2:30 to begin. She does not exercise her potty mouth until about 14:30.

[The Magic Pudding..]

Here is Emma. you can skip forward to about 2:30 to begin. She does not exercise her potty mouth until about 14:30.

I only got to 5:43, talking about faith.
She does seems fun.

The disciples spent lots of time with Jesus, but they weren't as stalwart as I'd expect persons who'd actually spent time with the son of god to be. I share names with two of them, some respect for the doubter.
Later followers who never met Jesus died gruesomely, gladly maybe without denying him.
I think the "word" grew with the telling.
All I see, all I intuit are the words of men and those should always be questioned.
Kings were told and accepted they were god given.
There were how many centuries, where you couldn't question aloud?

[zorkan]

That guy should have a discussion with this guy:

[zorkan]

Which religions are you most atheist to on a sliding scale of 1 to 10?
All of these get a 10 from me.

https://www.ranker.com/list/fringe-weird-religions/ivylocke
Pana Wave sounds great, but I won't bite.

Not mentioned here is Anastasianism.
Based on a tale of the blonde haired Anastasia, who is so close to nature she is fed by wild animals.
Big following in Russia, Poland and other neighbouring states.
A hoax for sure but I kind of like it. Scores 9/10 on my scale of nonsense.