Israeli-Hamas war

[Tom62]

We've seen a vid with a pro Palestine bent. For good measures here is one with a pro Israel bent.

[Icarus]

Damn good link Tom. The talker is Ben Shapiro, an American right wing rabble rouser. The history lesson should be useful for most of us........that is, if Shapiro is teaching us the actual history. He is not always truthful but I suspect that this commentary is fairly accurate.

I appreciate the history lesson. On the other hand I dislike Shapiro immensely because he talks too god damned fast. In fact I would take some consolation by using a pair of pliers to squash his tongue.  Then maybe he could slow down and speak in a less staccato way.  I reckon that this dude is plenty educated and smart. His delivery however causes some of us to think that he is talking down to us....which he probably is.  I suspect that he may be qualified to do so.

I am going out to my garage. I will look into the tool box to find a large pair of pliers, just in case I happen to find Shapiro.

I have read somewhere that in 1907 the British encouraged Jews to migrate to Israel.   British army forces were dispatched to that part of the world to help Jews settle in "the promised land". Shapiro did not mention that part of the deal.....if it was actually a part of hundred year history.

[Tom62]

I don't dislike Shapiro. He just talks too fast and has some religious ideas that I don't agree with. As long as he doesn't speak about religion, his points of view are worthwhile to listen too. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with them.

[Asmodean]

You'll be following sports next.

Nah. I generally care little about things that don't affect me and/or fail to entertain.

I do follow some sports in a coincidental manner - if biathlon is on, for example, or competitive archery/shooting, I'm not unlikely to half-heartedly watch it, though I care little for who wins what.

My stakes in the Israeli-Hamas conflict are far more personal. I'd rather see the people who harbor me no ill will come out ahead of the ones who do. "No" Israeli has a reason, a religious mandate or the inclanation to do me harm, the occasional psychopath excluded. Comparatively speaking, "a lot" of Palestinians cannot say the same.

[The Magic Pudding..]

Time to time images are projected on the Sydney Opera House sails.
The whippersnapper state premier refused to do it for the kings coronation, I thought it petty of him.

So they project an Israeli flag, I think.
Why? Wouldn't doves be better, you know Israel is going to reply to nasty with NASTY.  I very much don't like my opera house being made a target.

The federal opposition leader derided the foreign minister for urging Israel to act with restraint.  Strange guy, doesn't help that he looks like Voldemort.

Stoke my hate Peter

E&OE

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

I want to thank the Prime Minister for his words and the discussions we've been involved in this morning in relation to the substance of the motion.

It's remarkable that this attack on the 7th of October was just a total act of sheer barbarity.

The images, the shocking betrayal, the interpretation of what took place means that no longer can the sympathisers of these murderous terrorists call them 'freedom fighters'.

No longer can the apologists of this death cult claim they have a just and noble cause.

What occurred nine days ago was the embodiment of evil.

And the abhorrent acts of Hamas' inhumanity have been evident for the world to see:

Missiles raining down on Israeli cities.

Militants invading Israeli territory.

A massacre of young people at a music festival.

Civilians gunned down in their cars, fired upon while fleeing, and executed in the streets after surrendering.

Women being raped, stripped naked, and dragged and displayed through the streets.

Lifeless and mutilated bodies being paraded on the back of utilities.

Mothers and fathers riddled with bullets as they used their bodies to cover their children in a final act of bravery.

Jihadists cheering over the dead bodies of Israeli soldiers.

Babies being beheaded.

We pray for all of those innocent people who have been abducted and are currently being held as hostages and taken to Gaza – especially the elderly and the children.

The monsters of Hamas will continue to use them as human shields.

The images that we saw over the weekend of a Hamas militant nursing toddlers who had been abducted from Israel.

And if we needed any more convincing of Hamas' unashamed sadism, it's the glee they have displayed in stating that they will film and post online the execution of those little boys and girls, of men and women, of survivors from the Holocaust.

We know, Mr Speaker, that more than one thousand Israelis are dead. Thousands more are wounded.

As others have observed, October 7 was Israel's September 11.

It was, with great shame, the greatest loss of life, of Jewish life, on a single day since the end of the Holocaust.

It was the most major attack on Israel since Yom Kippur War of 1973.

Let us be under no misapprehension about the nature of the attack:

Like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Hamas' invasion of Israel was unprovoked, it was unjust and it was absolutely unacceptable.

And let us be under no misapprehension about Hamas' intent from this point:

It has no desire for a peaceful two-state solution.

Its actions were just designed to derail the peace process. Hamas wants to remove Israel from the map, drive people of Jewish faith into the sea.

The Coalition joins with every other person of decent humanity in condemning this attack by Hamas militants on Israel.

Israel has every right to exist.

Israel has every right to defend itself and its people.

Israel has every right to deter future attacks and other acts of aggression, of coercion and of interference.

And the Coalition supports – and proudly supports – Israel's right to do what is necessary and needed in the circumstances with every asset available to safeguard its sovereignty, to bolster its borders, to protect its people, and to thwart threats it now faces – the existential threats.

There must be no restraint shown to those who showed no restraint themselves in committing these vicious and vile acts of terrorism.

I had the honour of speaking, the other day, to the Australian Resident Ambassador of Israel, to his Excellency Amir Maimon.

I say to him and to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, to the people of Israel enduring their darkest hours:

The Coalition wishes you swift success in a war you did not choose, but a war which you are compelled to fight.

Mr Speaker, the events unfolding abroad are disturbing for many Australians who have close ties to Israel and Palestine.

Some Australians will have family and friends caught up on both sides of this horrible conflict.

Let me make this important point:

Events abroad must be no justification for rising tensions within our own communities.

It is particularly repugnant that some Australians have decided to take to the streets to celebrate Hamas' attack on Israel and the slaughter of innocent Israeli children, women and men.

We heard an odious barrage of comments at the attacks describing them – in our country – as a 'day of pride' and a 'day of victory'.

Moreover, the rally which occurred on the evening of Monday the 9th of October at the Sydney Opera House was an abomination and a day of shame for our nation.

Australia's Jewish community were unable to gather at our iconic landmark – which to the credit of the New South Wales Government had been illuminated in blue and white, as a sign of support.

They wanted to be there to mourn loved ones – loved ones who had been lost – or to express their solidarity.

The anti-Israel protesters fired flares, they burnt an Israeli flag at that moment, and they shouted with words that we should never hear in our country, or anywhere else in the civilised world: 'gas the Jews', 'F*** the Jews' and 'F*** Israel'.

That was the depth of the sentiment and that is the reason, Mr Speaker, that we gather here today to condemn those comments.

Such behaviour...

[Interjection]

I won't stop saying it.

I'll take the interjection – I won't stop saying it, because it should be condemned!

The words should never have been said in the first place!

And shame on you, shame on you, for condoning those words or suggesting that those words shouldn't be condemned in this place.

I won't stop saying it.

I won't stop saying them – and the Jewish community here in Australia deserves to hear you condemn them as well.

That behaviour is a stain on the Australian character, Mr Speaker, and a flagrant disregard of human decency.

Australians who watched the footage of these seething mobs and their sordid behaviour did not recognise their fellow countrymen.

I joined with great pride, 10,000 Australians at Dover Heights last Wednesday for a Jewish Community Vigil.

The pain of events abroad was palpable.

As you looked into the audience of people of Jewish faith, people of other faiths, people of no faith – there to provide support to Australians.

It was raw.

The tears of young girls, from grandmothers – striking.

But most concerningly, those Australians of Jewish faith who were gathered, and I could see the anxiety in their eyes.

I could see that they were frightened.

Mr Speaker, Australia is not without its anti-Semitic elements.

Both sides of politics have fought back against it, as we have every other form of politically motivated violence.

But the rally at Sydney Opera House escalated that anti-Semitism to another level.

We have to recognise that because the impact it has had on the Jewish community here in Australia will take a lot to undo.

We need to understand that level of anxiety in the Jewish community at present.

Jewish parents are concerned about their children wearing their Jewish school uniform in public – in our country!

Jewish people are apprehensive about their safety when visiting a Jewish supermarket or practising their faith at a synagogue.

Not because of something they've done or said, but because of who they are, because of their faith, because of their heritage, because of their belief.

That's the reason they're worried about their children being targeted in indiscriminate attacks.

That they might be identified by their school uniform that they wear.

That is the sentiment running deep within the Jewish community here in our country today.

And the purpose of this statement, of this motion before the House, is to recognise those dreadful attacks and the impact it's having, psychologically, on people in our country.

Our wonderful Jewish community needs to know that their security is being taken seriously – both at a federal level and the state levels.

I support in the strongest possible terms the Prime Minister's announcement during the course of his remarks today of funding to provide support, particularly to the Jewish community, to bolster security, to make sure that those children can go to school safely, that people in places of gathering can do so with safety, first and foremost, and the sanctity of their activities preserved.

Mr Speaker:

Many Australians are passionate about the events abroad because of their past, because of the history, because of existing ties to the Middle East.

And we respect every view.

But we're Australians first and foremost.

And a reason for the success of Australia's social cohesion is our social contract as Australians.

Under that social contract, we do not allow the problems of other parts of the worlds to manifest in our communities.

We keep resentment and anger at bay through the self-command of our character.

Many protesters in recent days have undermined our social contract.

I encourage faith and multicultural leaders in Australia to call for calm and especially to condemn any abuse or acts which are an incitement to violence.

And many of them – to their great credit – have done exactly that.

Some leaders, though, have chosen to remain silent instead of voicing their disapproval.

And their silence is, frankly, contemptible.

To any Australian who incites or chooses violence, know that you will face the full force of the law.

Let me reiterate the sentiments I made last week without any hesitation or reservation:

People who are non-citizens, here in our country, on visas, and who are engaged in vile anti-Semitic behaviour – who are inciting violence, or who choose violence – should have their visas cancelled and be promptly deported from our country.

Had those comments be made abroad, it is clear that a decision maker within the Department of Home Affairs would not have granted a visa to come to our country in the first place.

Why would there be contention about cancelling a visa of a non-citizen conducting themselves, in making public commentary about anti-Semitic conduct or behaviour or inciting violence or choosing violence?

There should be no doubt about the swift course of action required, and I encourage the Minister for Home Affairs to not hesitate in exercising her powers as needed in our national interest.

If we are to maintain the social cohesion for which we are known, then we must have zero tolerance for behaviours which are frankly intolerable.

With Israel undertaking military operations in Gaza in response to Hamas' acts of terrorism, there have been – and will continue to be – civilian casualties, tragically, on the Palestinian side, and Hamas knows that.

They knew that there would be retaliation for these grotesque acts of terrorism.

They knew that the Israelis would respond, and they knew through their actions that it would result directly in the loss of the lives of people on the Gaza Strip, and elsewhere.

Hamas' tactic of using civilian infrastructure as military headquarters, as storage facilities for weapons, and as part of battlefield operations speaks to who they are.

If we're looking for an equivalence to Hamas – to their culture, to their conduct – look no further than ISIS.

This Parliament has joined together over a long period of time. We've committed troops to parts of the world, including Afghanistan, to fight back against the depravity of ISIS – their treatment of women, of young girls, the way in which they have slaughtered people without a single hesitation.

Hamas is the equivalent of ISIS.

Mr Speaker, Israel, of course, is doing its utmost to forewarn civilians and minimise casualties.

As the Prime Minister said wisely before, Australians who are in the region should take the advice of our Prime Minister and depart if that's appropriate for them in the circumstances, but take the offer if you've asked for it and it's available to you.

The situation clearly is and will deteriorate further.

Mr Speaker, we know that there are some commentators who continue to try and find moral equivalence in the actions of the Israel Defence Forces with Hamas' terrorism, and it should be utterly condemned.

Australia stood with Ukraine when it was subjected to the barbarity of an invader.

And let us today, as a Parliament, demonstrate that Australia stands with our long-standing ally, our dedicated partner, our dear friend in the fight against terrorism: Israel, in its hour of need.

Let us show the Israeli people and Jewish communities here in Australia that they have our support and our solidarity.

Mr Speaker, 75 years ago the nation of Israel was born.

The Jewish people finally had a place which was theirs.

The Jewish story, as we know, is one of every trial and tribulation: of privation, of enslavement, of wandering, of subjugation, persecution and exile, of dispersion, of massacre, of Holocaust: the gassing of 6 million people.

But, most importantly, the Jewish story today is one of survival – and it always will be.

It's a story of achievement from adversity, of triumph from tragedy.

It's a story which is committed to the collective Jewish memory, and it is the Jewish memory of prevailing over tragedy, and that Jewish spirit we know so well in many of our friends and fellow Australians, which will see Israel again succeed through these darkest of days.

I commend the Government for bringing this motion to the House and I look forward to the contributions on both sides because this is a moment for us to stand with people who have been subjected to the most abhorrent acts at the hands of a terrorist organisation.

We stood in this place, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

We've stood in this place and we've condemned the terrorist attacks in France, in Germany and elsewhere – and we do that again, today.

[ends]

[billy rubin]

nature red in tooth and claw.

[billy rubin]

in other news, the israelis have allwed 20 trucks into gaza with supplies.

two of them carry water. at two million palestinian non-combatants to supply, thats one-millionth of a  truckload each.

one truck can carry about twenty metric tons, so that works out about four litres per 100 people, i think.

[Tank]

They need about 100 trucks per day when local water supplies are available.

[billy rubin]

the official israei line is that they have declared war on hamas, perhaps two thousand soldiers and political members?

however, what they have actually done is declare war on two million helpless and unarmed palestinian civilians.

so far the score is about 1400 israeli civilians killed, maybe 100 military?

something like 1500 hamas military killed, and 4800 palestinians civilians, mostly women and children.

in the west bank, i have read that the israeli settlers have murdered an additional 1280 palestinian civilians since 07 october.

i had great sympathy for the israeli people at one time. no longer. their actions are leading me to the conclusion that the best solution for a lasting peace in the middle east is the ending of the state of israel. i very much want to avoid this conclusion, but it is becoming inescapably clear that the behaviour of the state of israel, internally and externally, is a worldwide threat to peace.

this is an unpopular opinion among those in the so-called peaceful west. yet it seems unavoidably clear to me at this time.

[Tank]

Where did you see the figure for the Palestinian deaths on the West Bank? The BBC reported additional threats but nothing like that number of deaths.

[billy rubin]

thank you for questioning that. i posted it before i drank any coffee this morning.

i think the number correctly refers to palestinians shot and wounded by settlers and israeli soldiers, not killed, since 07 october:

In the first eight months of 2023, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) recorded a daily average of three incidents of settler attacks a day on Palestinians in the West Bank, killing and injuring Palestinians, damaging their property, and preventing them from moving to reach their lands, workplaces, families and friends.

However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/21/gaza-palestinians-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers

[Tank]

thank you for questioning that. i posted it before i drank any coffee this morning.

i think the number correctly refers to palestinians shot and wounded by settlers and israeli soldiers, not killed, since 07 october:

In the first eight months of 2023, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) recorded a daily average of three incidents of settler attacks a day on Palestinians in the West Bank, killing and injuring Palestinians, damaging their property, and preventing them from moving to reach their lands, workplaces, families and friends.

However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/21/gaza-palestinians-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers

Disgusting. Thank you for highlighting this.

[billy rubin]

the government in isael specifically refuses a two-state solution, preferring instead a putin-style annexation of the west bank. netinyahu doesnt want a coherent palestinian state. a stateless population of refugees that he can disenfranchise and push inbto egypt and jordan is much more to his liking, and to his government.

like it or not, that wont work. there are two m illion palestinians in gaza, some 2.5 million ? in the west bank, and some other number doing their best to live in israel under apartheid, and in jordan and elsewhere. its been 75 years since they were expelled. they will never go away. the only way through this mess to an end  is to create a palestinian state where they can live in peace and cut ties with the militants.

there are three issues that other middle east countries have with israel.

1 some arab states want the arab lands in the west bank that israel is annexing to be returned. netinyahu explicitly wants to annex the historical provinces of judea and samaria, which are now mostly the west bank

2 some arab powers have a political dispute with the creation of israel in the first place, like hamas or hezbollah.

3 some islamist states want israel to be destroyed on religious grounds

for 1, the palestinian civilians are mostly only part of the first one. many of them would happily coexist with israel, if israel would let them. they say so constantly, in between being murdered.

for 2, hamas and hezbollah dont represent most palestinians, but they have the guns and they will never go away no matter how many are killed. every time israel kills someone's mother, father, sister, or brother, they create another militant who has no regard for life. those savage arab murderers who invaded israel on 07 october didnt arise out of nowhere. israel planted their seeds and nurtured them, then reaped the resulting harvest.

for 3, iran is not arab state, but wants to re-frame the conflict in islamist terms for its own reasons of regional hegemony.

the israelis want to kill their way to peace. it hasnt worked for them for 75 years, but they havent learned anything in that time.

[Icarus]

 ^ I believe that Billy is telling it like it is.

I don't agree with those Islamics who are obliged to use a prayer rug five times a day. What the Hell, I do not agree with those dudes with the black clothing, long beards, and funny hats either.

On the surface, it does not appear to be a religious war. On further examination, it will be easier on the conscious of the Hebrews to kill Muslims, and visa versa.

[billy rubin]

its not getting any better anytime soon