Israeli-Hamas war

[Asmodean]

the only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

This is untrue. There have been attacks against Israel by militants from Palestinian territories for at least as long as I can remember. There have also been periods of Israeli territorial expansions.

Actually, this reminds me of this political drama from when I was a teenager, where it was said something to the tune of;

- What do you call a society that has to live with the idea that a cafe you sit in could blow up at any moment?
- Israel.

Mainstream "light entertainment" of Left-ish political alignment was onto it what, 20 years ago? (Maybe more - I have the name of the show on the tip of my tongue, but can't for the life of me remember so I can look it up properly) No, Hamas did not do it in a day. and by "Hamas," I don't mean the name - I mean the people.

This also speaks to your later points, so... Situationally-wise, as TV quotes go.

theres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

This is debatable. Islamic militants tend not to differentiate between Israeli civilians and combatants. For example, their rockets are not far from just being lobbed across the border, preferably in a direction of a major settlement, to land wherever they may. Some also strap bombs to their vest and actively target commuter buses, cafes and such like. (Often with celebrations in the streets upon "success" of larger such missions) That's what actively targeting civilians looks like - it really is not unlike what Russia is doing in Ukraine, though on a different scale.

Sure, Israeli military accepts a lot of collateral damage, but then places like Gaza are exceedingly crowded and organisations like Hamas try to use it to their advantage. This means that when things call for a military resolution, the options of a clean war are... Quite simply not present.

the palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

Kind-of. They do get some say in how their society is run. Were they more active in rooting out their extremists, jihadists and other such elements, then they'd likely have a more stable society with more peaceful borders. Places like Jordan seem to manage somehow.

Sure, there are people who do not want to be complicit and therefore move - there are others who do not want to be complecit, but have to remain, but do let us not forget that third group, who, with varying degrees of loudness, do their cultural equivalent of raising a glass every time a terrorist from "their" side finds a target - whatever it may be.

[The Magic Pudding..]

the only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

theres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

the palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

I thought Iran wins 'cause there'll be no advancement of Israeli/Saudi... chumminess.

[billy rubin]

the only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

This is untrue. There have been attacks against Israel by militants from Palestinian territories for at least as long as I can remember. There have also been periods of Israeli territorial expansions.

Actually, this reminds me of this political drama from when I was a teenager, where it was said something to the tune of;

- What do you call a society that has to live with the idea that a cafe you sit in could blow up at any moment?
- Israel.

Mainstream "light entertainment" of Left-ish political alignment was onto it what, 20 years ago? (Maybe more - I have the name of the show on the tip of my tongue, but can't for the life of me remember so I can look it up properly) No, Hamas did not do it in a day. and by "Hamas," I don't mean the name - I mean the people.

This also speaks to your later points, so... Situationally-wise, as TV quotes go.

theres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

This is debatable. Islamic militants tend not to differentiate between Israeli civilians and combatants. For example, their rockets are not far from just being lobbed across the border, preferably in a direction of a major settlement, to land wherever they may. Some also strap bombs to their vest and actively target commuter buses, cafes and such like. (Often with celebrations in the streets upon "success" of larger such missions) That's what actively targeting civilians looks like - it really is not unlike what Russia is doing in Ukraine, though on a different scale.

Sure, Israeli military accepts a lot of collateral damage, but then places like Gaza are exceedingly crowded and organisations like Hamas try to use it to their advantage. This means that when things call for a military resolution, the options of a clean war are... Quite simply not present.

the palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.

Kind-of. They do get some say in how their society is run. Were they more active in rooting out their extremists, jihadists and other such elements, then they'd likely have a more stable society with more peaceful borders. Places like Jordan seem to manage somehow.

Sure, there are people who do not want to be complicit and therefore move - there are others who do not want to be complecit, but have to remain, but do let us not forget that third group, who, with varying degrees of loudness, do their cultural equivalent of raising a glass every time a terrorist from "their" side finds a target - whatever it may be.

it is completely true

for every israeli infant slaughtered on saturday, there are 20 palestinian infants dying in incubators right now in gaza because there is no electricity in the hospital.

for every israeli shot in a cafe in israel, there are 20 palestinians shot down in the street.

what do you call a nation whose citizens and military shoot an  innocent father and son for attending the funeral of a family member also shot down?

you call them israelis.

there is no excuse for terrorism. but both sides in this affair have bloody hands, and we are watching the next gereation of suicide bombers being radicalized right now.

by israel.

[The Magic Pudding..]

what do you call a nation whose citizens and military shoot an  innocent father and son for attending the funeral of a family member also shot down?

Overly cautious.
Though I'm not surrounded people baying for my extermination, so perhaps not overly.

What do you call the nation that did the collateral murder and still seeks to punish the truth speaker?

[Asmodean]

it is completely true

If you would be so kind as to read the response before in turn responding to it..?

I'm far from interested in being propagandized to.

EDIT: I guess I should clarify the point of contention a little bit;

the only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

This is at best inaccurate, or a lie as I think is most likely*, or at worst deliberate attempt at propaganda. Hamas did not do "it" in a day. The current escalation is not a new conflict. To imply that they did and/or that it somehow is is... Well, it's what we in the Ukraine war debate circles like to think of as "Vatnik cope." (*Basically, trying to be clever with one's in this case timelines to misrepresent events to best suit one's own personal/political/national agenda)

Beyond that, there is an argument to be made for the Israeli moral ground being far closer to "Western values" than whatever Hamas claims - the converse may be true in parts of the Arab world, but the differences are there... Etc. I'm now back to the "please read the damned reply."

You know what, fuck it! Here's an EDIT to my EDIT. I was not going to because I don't like accusing people of willingly trying to mislead, but at this point...

for every israeli infant slaughtered on saturday, there are 20 palestinian infants dying in incubators right now in gaza because there is no electricity in the hospital.

Yeah. Because Hamas just did that one-little-thing on that one-little-day, then took a vacation.

My man, what in the actual fuck?!

[billy rubin]

i dont read long posts, asmo.

i have limited time, so i am forced to practice concision.

[Icarus]

I will side with Billy in this debate. The Israelis have, over the last 50 years, hammered the Palestine people and stolen their land and treated the Palestinians like dirt. What we have in that area of the world is something akin to Apartheid.

Not to forgive the Hamas lunatics for their murderous behavior. There is enough blame to go around. I suspect that the majority of the Palestinians favor peace and just want to be left alone. Their religion does make space for murderers and saboteurs. Allah has given them instructions to destroy infidels while half the world has damned the Jews.

The Jews are to be given a free pass for their anger but not for murdering defenseless Muslims. The Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years and hated by near sighted observers. Everybody has an axe to grind.

 

[Tank]

I will side with Billy in this debate. The Israelis have, over the last 50 years, hammered the Palestine people and stolen their land and treated the Palestinians like dirt. What we have in that area of the world is something akin to Apartheid.

Not to forgive the Hamas lunatics for their murderous behavior. There is enough blame to go around. I suspect that the majority of the Palestinians favor peace and just want to be left alone. Their religion does make space for murderers and saboteurs. Allah has given them instructions to destroy infidels while half the world has damned the Jews.

The Jews are to be given a free pass for their anger but not for murdering defenseless Muslims. The Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years and hated by near sighted observers. Everybody has an axe to grind.

 

Agreed.

There were interviewing civilians in Gaza a couple of days ago. One old chap who had lived most of his life in this shit storm was saying that Hamas were their fighters and would destroy Israel and they would go home. They are living on cloud cuckoo land.

[Tank]

Hamas 2017 charter

This is how Hamas want to be seen. There was a 1988 charter that was revised in 2017.

[billy rubin]

40 percent of the people in gaza are under the age of 14.

hamas was elected to power in 2007. there have been no elections in gaza since.

[billy rubin]

sorry, folks. this whole thing bothers me immensely.

here's whats going on, as i see it.

israel, under the lie that they are only after hamas, seems to be setting up gaza for a mass evacuation, to egypt, probably. the way they will do it is to create a humanitarian crisis that will force the palestinians from gaza and then israel can forbid their return.

they did this in 1948, when they cleared israel proper, and in 1967, when they occupied the west bank and forced southern palestinians into gaza.

the whole plan that israel has is to get rid of the palestinian problem-- no two-state solution, no palestiniain integration into israeli society. take their land, drive them out, get rid of them--egypt, jordan, lebanon, they dont care. make them homeless and stateless, and living in an arab state. if they can accomplish this, all israel then has to do then is forbid their return. egypt sees this obvious ploy, and is reluctant to receive any palestinians.

the israeli stategy will not work anyway, because the arabs are all still tribal peoples, and hate the palestinians, as they all hate each other. there will be no palestinian integration into any arab state. the palestinians will remain nominal refugees no matter where they are, although none of them will ever have lived in their homeland.

the critical result is that isael is now breeding a new generation of palestinian suicide bombers, today. 40 percent of the people in gaza are kids, who have never known a country, never known peace, have never known an isaeli that wasnt an enemy, and have no jobs, no prospects, no lives, and nothing to lose. israel apparently thinks that it can just kill them all, although 75 years of failures shows that that is a futile goal.

inthe short term, israel hopes to oppress the palestinians into non-existence, and has tried repeatedly over the years to accomplish it. it fails, every time, and things fester, and now have gotten much worse.

right now we are seeing the suicide bombers of the 2030s being prepared.

there has to be a solution in palestine that doesnt require either the israelis or the palestinians to be exterminated. there hasnt been an election in gaza since 2006, so the palestinians there have had no voice in their governance since before most of them were born.. the israelis elected the current right-wing government of israel, so the citizenry there bear responsibility for its actions.

its a fucking mess, and nothing happening right now in gaza is going to make it the slightest bit better.

[The Magic Pudding..]

sorry, folks. this whole thing bothers me immensely.

here's whats going on, as i see it.

The whole business of setting up modern Israel seems to be wrong, inviting the diaspora to return to a crowded region.  It was though.

You seem to see it with one eye, you don't mention what motivates each of the Jewish reprisals.

If you attack expect a greater reprisal, because your people aren't worth as much as their people.

[billy rubin]

sorry, folks. this whole thing bothers me immensely.

here's whats going on, as i see it.

The whole business of setting up modern Israel seems to be wrong, inviting the diaspora to return to a crowded region.  It was though.

You seem to see it with one eye, you don't mention what motivates each of the Jewish reprisals.

If you attack expect a greater reprisal, because your people aren't worth as much as their people.

of course im aware of what motivates the jews.

as opposed to the israelis. you are aware of the difference?

there are arab israelis,who under apartheid are second class citizens in their own country.

the jewish israelis have suffered great atrocities at the hands of pitiless arab foes. they are outnumbered and hated.

when attacked, they are delighted to reciprocate with savagery in kind, as shown today, in gaza. they have a government and international allies to look to for support.

but where do the hundreds of thousands of child residents of gaza look to? to what government can they appeal to for protection? where can they look for representstion? nowhere.

there are no innocent parties in this war, only triumphant terrorists, on both sides.

there needs to be a solution that does not involve genocide, whether jewish or arab. there has to be a stable order to work towards. not death, not extermionation, not apartheid.

those who do not see that,  are part of the problem. it hasnt been solved in 75 years.

what will be the solution? there will be one, for good or for ill.

sorry if this seems inflammatory. i am astonished that some people seem unable to understand the basic politics involved in this.

its not hard to see. its been the same for decades.

[Dark Lightning]

It would be nice if the whole Partition business hadn't happened. Then again, the peoples of that region have been killing each other for Millenia.

[billy rubin]

none of the people dying there today have been killing anybody for millenia.

evrry man, woman, and child there today dies his own personal death.

the past is ancient history. the solutions need to be in present time.