Israeli-Hamas war

[Asmodean]

Oh! Yes, maybe in light of the recent escalation, although Gaza does stand... At least it did last I checked a few hours ago.

I think it may turn into a lenghty war, provided Hamas did not go all-in from the get-go, which... Seriously bad news for the civilian population - both in Gaza and in Israel, although there are few ways there of escaping a bad news sort of situation for that group. What was that Ukrainian (I think - mebbe Polish? I learned it in relation to the Ukraine war) proverb again..? "When the lords fight, the peasants' teeth rattle?" Maybe not exactly that, but wise words regardless.

[Tom62]

I think that the worst enemy of the Palestinians are the Palestinians themselves. There have been several peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians that almost succeeded until the Palestinians came up with last minute crazy demands. Furthermore, it is a fact that the Palestinian Authority has always been corrupt as hell; and that Hamas and Hezbollah clearly stated that they want to kill all Jews.

[Asmodean]

I tend to agree. The Palestinian government is nearly as big a joke as the Somali one, and theirs is notorious for topping the lists of failed states. Too many (radical- and other -ist) interests that conflict with effective governance, I suppose, on top of the self-serving and the corruption.

[The Magic Pudding..]

OK, I'm sure HAF can answer this.
It Israel had taken its boot off the neck of the rabid dog

There's a problem with that metaphor, there are lots of dogs, some are friendly with wagley tails.

Alright
If Israel had taken its boot off all metaphorical dogs necks, nice and not, years ago, would they be in a better place?

[Tom62]

I tend to disagree. Unless you can get rid of all radical elements in this conflict them, peace is not obtainable. Hamas and Hezbollah thrive on hate and so may some of ultra Orthodox Jews.

[Asmodean]

One line of argument, to which I've taken to subscribing after having been wrong about this issue for the first decade of me even knowing about it, is that if Israel took its boot off the metaphorical neck of a rabid dog, it would end up with metaphorical rabies.

Sure, there are plenty of people in Palestine who could coexist with Israel. As is often the case in certain more authoritarian societies, however, they end up mattering little politically speaking because that other component of society can effectively coerce, threaten or just plain ignore them with very little domestic reprecussions.

Palestinian authorities are about as effective at managing their extremists as the now-deposed Afghan authorities were at managing Taliban, which is to say, "not very." When those forces then set their goals in the conquest or destruction of a neighboring nation... Well, luckily for that nation, it has a sizable column of tanks to its name.

God was an idiot to have given the same plot of desert to several prospective owners, is what I think. At least there ought to have been vast quantities of oil there or some such... Diamonds, maybe... Something tangible for all the effort.

[The Magic Pudding..]

and the dance will go on.

That's why I think they should go all in and... Clean house,

How?
They are terrorists.
They'll slink away like rats

[Asmodean]

Spend a lot of time and resources. Go door to door and look for weapon caches and what else have you - maybe build a taller Wall(tm) with flamethrowers on top. Blockade land and sea access and actually inspect every crate of cargo coming in that you do not directly control. It's a monumental undertaking.

As I said, that situation as I see it would require Israel to have significant allied help as it would likely take most of their standing military resources for a number of years.

[billy rubin]

it appears that israel is planning on going into gaza with ground troops.

not a good idea, if you remember the american battle of manila in 1945. in that clean-up, the americans had to go into manila and re-take it room by room. i remember the walls and buildings in manila when i was a child that were still pockmarked with bullet holes from american and japanese machine guns. it took a month and 100,000 civilians died to finish that operation.

are we ready for a repeat? because the IDF and hamas appear to be ready.

it wont be hamas that takes the brunt of this. it will be the ordinary civilian palestinians of gaza who will be caught in the crossfire and will die.

and tje biggest question of all:

what did hamas hope to gain by this?

it will set any peace process back bybyears

it will fe-legitimize the palestimian cause on the world stage.

it will inflame conflicts elsewhete


sure, ot has thrown a wrench into the saudi peace agreement with israeel. and it has reminded everybody that the palestinian people mustnt be ignored.

but is that it?

wad it eorth it?

[Asmodean]

not a good idea, if you remember the american battle of manila in 1945. in that clean-up, the americans had to go into manila and re-take it room by room. i remember the walls and buildings in manila when i was a child that were still pockmarked with bullet holes from american and japanese machine guns. it took a month and 100,000 civilians died to finish that operation.

Not a good idea, no, but that's part of what Israel has to do to set Hamas back a generation or two.

Has to be done, I think.

[Tank]

More Israeli troops are massing on the border with Gaza as I write this.

[Asmodean]

Norway condemned the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

I disagree with the official position in this - quite strongly, in fact. How else but a blockade can Israel prevent the supply of weapons, ammunition, fuel... All those things Hamas depends on to continue their war efforts?

I suppose I see some virtue behind the virtue signal, but my government is not exactly offering Israel any better options to go with with their condemnation.

[Tank]

Hamas are holding hostages who I suspect they would actually like to kill. Israel can't apply pressure directly to the kidnappers. I think the Israeli blockade is the least worst option to apply to Hamas.

[Asmodean]

Yeah... There is that. I do hope I'm wrong about this, but I suspect no good outcome for the majority of the hostages.

Israel can not, should not and likely will not negotiate their release with Hamas - any concession beyond "prisoner exchange" would be a bad strategic decision. And if they go in after the hostages guns a-blazin'... Well... what's a kidnapper with few other options to do, but use them as human shields until they are no more?

[billy rubin]

the only difference between hamas and the likud is that hamas did it in one day while.tge israelis have been doing it for 56 years.

theres no moral high ground on any side anymore. both hamas and the official israeli policy is to act with bestial violence and disregard for innocents.

the palestinian people are the losers here, as always. there will be no winners.