Israeli-Hamas war

[Asmodean]

That assumes a degree of tactical naïvete on the part of the Israeli armed forces, which I am hesitant to grant them.

Say you have a mined field. It's only a death trap until you blow a few cluster munitions right above it and/or roam it thoroughly with one of them spiky tractors. It won't make it safe by civilian standards, but if done well, it will be more than good enough for conducting military operations in.

Say you have a tunnel, potentially full of enemy personnel or booby traps. Collapse the roof on it, if at all possible - seal all entrances if not.

If you have the resources - and do let us remember that Israel is not fighting a guerilla war. They do have a modern, well-trained and technologically-spohisticated army - you try to deal with such issues as mines and booby traps before a mass infantry movement.

[Tank]

That assumes a degree of tactical naïvete on the part of the Israeli armed forces, which I am hesitant to grant them.

Say you have a mined field. It's only a death trap until you blow a few cluster munitions right above it and/or roam it thoroughly with one of them spiky tractors. It won't make it safe by civilian standards, but if done well, it will be more than good enough for conducting military operations in.

Say you have a tunnel, potentially full of enemy personnel or booby traps. Collapse the roof on it, if at all possible - seal all entrances if not.

If you have the resources - and do let us remember that Israel is not fighting a guerilla war. They do have a modern, well-trained and technologically-spohisticated army - you try to deal with such issues as mines and booby traps before a mass infantry movement.

And kill the hostages they are potentially holding there?

And let's not forget that the Afgans have sent Britain, Russia and the USA packing or how the Vietnamese sent the French and the USA packing. Israel are the invaders in the eyes of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are fighting for their lives on their land.

[Asmodean]

...Which is why Israel has few options other than relative ruthlessness in dealing with the situation. If they end up killing the hostages, then I'd say that they should engage in disporoportional response by "any" measurement.

Theirs is to secure the safety of Israel's citizens, first and foremost in Israel. While morally debatable, it may mean a practical end to any self-governance in Gaza. If not, what else is there?

Of course, if you are aware of hostages being held there, you may want to attempt a rescue or two, but again, to assume that Israeli armed forces would go into a tunnel not counting on and being able to counter booby traps and enemy personnel presence is... Well, it's a big ask. Such an operation would cost Israel, but then, if there are some additional wins, such as rendering Hamas combat-ineffective, then it may well be an excellent idea.

Hamas needs eradicating - which is not to say that everyone associated needs killing, but it is to say that that being the goal, giving them any breathing room is a strategic mistake.

EDIT In other news, our parliament came to a decision. What a momentous day!

...What decision, you ask? Oh, look! A pretty cloud! *points*

...You insist, you say? Well, fine! They decided that at some later date, they may decide to maybe acknowledge Palestine as a state.

My tax kroner working hard.

[billy rubin]

israel hasnt a clue about the big picture. israel created hamas, in the same way they cteated hezbollah.

when will the operation be over? when israel shoots every male in gaza over the age of 14? how will israel keep hamas from fading into egypt and returning to do it again?

what will israel do with gaza once it destroys ut? israel cant leave, or hamas comes back. so theyll have to station a huge military force there and israel will be responsible for feeding 2 million people.

hamas knew exactly what they were doing. they stopped the israeli detente with saudi, caused israel to antagonize all its muslim neighbors, and has maneuvered israel into becoming an international pariah.

[Tank]

Yep.

[Asmodean]

israel hasnt a clue about the big picture. israel created hamas, in the same way they cteated hezbollah.

Remember, there is always a bigger picture. I see yours and substitute my own. If Hamas can be seen as a reaction to Israel, then Israel can equally, and without much of a stretch, be seen as a reaction to "Hamases" of the past.

Whatever the case, one can't but ask, "well, so bloody what?!" A created B at a point C. You have a situation D at a point F. Given no practical time travel, what does it matter who created what? Is it somehow Oppenheimer's fault if a nuclear war breaks out today?

when will the operation be over? when israel shoots every male in gaza over the age of 14?

I hope they find a way not to. In any case, it won't get "prettier" in a hurry.

how will israel keep hamas from fading into egypt and returning to do it again?

Border control. Expensive, politically challenging and very long-lasting.

what will israel do with gaza once it destroys ut? israel cant leave, or hamas comes back. so theyll have to station a huge military force there and israel will be responsible for feeding 2 million people.

Pretty much. Take over the administration of the region and station a huge number of soldiers there.

hamas knew exactly what they were doing. they stopped the israeli detente with saudi, caused israel to antagonize all its muslim neighbors, and has maneuvered israel into becoming an international pariah.

I would argue that Hamas, not Israel, have increased their pariah status. Oh, certain people, like our own Red Party may bitch and moan and whine, but they've been calling for a boycott of Israel since... Probably before I was born, so no new enemies there.

Hamas had some tactical goals that they have acheived and some strategic goals that they, like "every" other terrorist organisation, have failed - or in this case, are in the process of failing. I'm pretty sure that they can more or less forget a free nation of Palestine or any claim to power in that area for decades and decades to come.

[The Magic Pudding..]

Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

[Asmodean]

Doesn't matter unless making an omelette and a bowl of chicken soup. Wouldn't want to end up with egg soup and... Scrambled chicken?

[billy rubin]

in todays news

AP have spoken to a witness of Thursday's incident in which health officials in Gaza say at least 104 people were killed:

Kamel Abu Nahel, who was being treated for a gunshot wound at Shifa hospital, said he and others went to the distribution point in the middle of the night because they heard there would be a delivery of food. "We've been eating animal feed for two months," he said.

He said Israeli troops opened fire on the crowd, causing it to scatter, with some people hiding under nearby cars. After the shooting stopped, they went back to the trucks, and the soldiers opened fire again. He was shot in the leg and fell over, and then a truck ran over his leg as it sped off, he said.

Medics arriving at the scene on Thursday found "dozens or hundreds" lying on the ground, according to Fares Afana, the head of the ambulance service at Kamal Adwan hospital. He said there were not enough ambulances to collect all the dead and wounded and that some were being brought to hospitals in donkey carts.

the IDF says the food trucks killed people by running over them.

[Asmodean]

Are they claiming spooked drivers?

[billy rubin]

doesnt matter what they say.

At this point we all know the Israeli answer of any critique: "But Khamas" https://imgur.com/gallery/5fLdmpA

[Asmodean]

Well, it's interesting, so it matters in that sense. I can subscribe to the notion more broadly though. The warring parties' official channels are not exactly treasure troves of reliable frontline information.

...Neither, for that matter, are civilians or reporters. Fog of war. It's... A fog.

[billy rubin]

theres no fog there.

the israelis have killed 30 000 palestinians and are slavering for more.

[Asmodean]

They have to win their war. What else is there?

It's a situation with outcomes ranging from poor to catastrophic. The question is when and for whom. I'm far from alone in seeing no happy endings. Yes, tens of thousands of Palestinians have died. Probably tens of thousands more will die. If Israel falls back now, this will happen again. Maybe not tomorrow or next year, but some terrorist organization will launch a rocket at a shopping center and so unleash the dogs of war.

That said, there absolutely is fog of war. The voices most readily available to be heard about the situation are those with some sort of a direct stake in it. How do you decide what's propaganda, what's emotions running high, what's inaccurate and what is true?

[billy rubin]

in my opinion, israel has forfeited the right to exist.

its not within my power, but i would end israel if it were.