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Started by billy rubin, October 28, 2022, 10:30:44 PM

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Asmodean

Quote from: Magdalena on October 31, 2022, 10:45:20 PMStill, could you ban me then?
Please.
You have the power to do it as well.
Tank is taking too long.
Sorry for a delayed reply - it was night time where I'm at.

While I technically could, that would be overstepping my admin mandate. I'm sorry, but I will not do that.

I broadly agree with the above, except I think that a word without context is nothing but wind. I think good faith argument is a good thing. Billy and I, for instance, have at it regularly with our opposing world views, me arguing from the perspective of the United States and the wider world that I know and live in - Billy from the perspective of the nation and the World he knows and lives in. They may be the same/overlapping geographically, but in the immortal words of Dire Straits, "we have just one world, but we live in different ones."

Yes, we are unlikely to agree on much, unless forced to compromise, but he makes some points I find both interesting and valid in certain circumstances, and I hope I return the favour. In such a discussion, if a linguistic cudgel is not aimed at any-one, but just set on the table in all its gory splendor to provide proper setting with its weight and implications, then personally, I think it belongs there.

That was how and why I used it in my response to Magdalena's post. That's what I see when I read Billy's subsequent posts, though his intended reasons may vary. In what is supposed to be a casual part of the forum, I should not have done that. The proper way to do it would have been to either follow Recusant's advice above, or quote the post into another thread and carry on there. That was laziness rather than intent, and for that, and the ensuing hurt, I apologize.



Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin



Married pilot snorts coke off topless woman, then tries flying packed plane.

Magdalena

Over the years, I have been apologized to so many times here by so many of you for one thing or another.

I forgive you.
I always do.

But this has to end. One can only forgive so many times. It's OK. I just have to remember what my life was like before I met you guys.

Chris, please don't contact Go Daddy to close HAF. No one here can run this place better than you.




Please ban me.
Beam me up, Scottie.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Recusant

:-\  Is one month sufficient? 
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Recusant

Quote from: hermes2015 on November 03, 2022, 03:10:10 AMAs D. H. Lawrence , James Joyce, and Henry Miller tried to show, words in themselves are neutral; it's the context of their use that can make them offensive.

I don't agree. The function of words is to carry meaning. They do not function outside of context, and some words carry their own context as well as meaning. A word which came into existence in the context of/for the purpose of demeaning and subjugating people and continues to be used for that is not neutral, in my opinion.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


hermes2015

Quote from: Recusant on November 03, 2022, 05:21:55 AM
Quote from: hermes2015 on November 03, 2022, 03:10:10 AMAs D. H. Lawrence , James Joyce, and Henry Miller tried to show, words in themselves are neutral; it's the context of their use that can make them offensive.

I don't agree. The function of words is to carry meaning. They do not function outside of context, and some words carry their own context as well as meaning. A word which came into existence in the context of/for the purpose of demeaning and subjugating people and continues to be used for that is not neutral, in my opinion.

Granted, but I meant that in Lady Chatterley's Lover, for example, he used certain four letter words usually used as swear words, in their original, linguistically correct way to describe actions and body parts. He wanted to show that it was perfectly acceptable to use them in polite society, provided that they were used in their correct English meaning. But, I guess, we live in the real world and Lawrence's dream isn't achievable.
"Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se."
― Charles Eames

Tom62

Could also be culture related. I grew up in a time and place where words just didn't matter. We found it rather silly that in the US words were beeped out, because they were considered to be "offensive". We thought it was quite normal to be very direct and use very innovative curses.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Asmodean

Quote from: Tom62 on November 03, 2022, 09:37:19 AMCould also be culture related. I grew up in a time and place where words just didn't matter. We found it rather silly that in the US words were beeped out, because they were considered to be "offensive". We thought it was quite normal to be very direct and use very innovative curses.
I hang out with gamers, where that still very much applies. I'd say two out of three Discord servers I frequent work like that, so... Not a thing of the past, I'd say, though perhaps a thing of certain specific cultures.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Magdalena

Quote from: Recusant on November 03, 2022, 05:04:45 AM:-\  Is one month sufficient?

billy rubin said:
"...white people in my life use "nigger" to make sure that we all know who those in power are, who tjose with the money are, and who those with the moral high ground are."

Knowing that now, Asmo called an entire race: "Niggers bad".

For how long would someone in another forum be banned for that?

Whatever your answer is, apply it to me and my dear friend, Snowflake.

I'll let you guys figure out how to use the word.

Thank you for everything, Casey.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Biggus Dickus

Hey Mags,

I figured if they don't ban me as I've requested I'd probably have to provoke them in some way, but if the following is okay with them, then I'm going to have to get really fucking creative.

:headscratch:

Quote from: billy rubin on October 31, 2022, 11:04:26 PM"what do you call a black man with a PhD?"

(the answer is "nigger.")


"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Recusant

#55
Note that in my previous comments I did not claim that context is irrelevant. I do not see an intention to disparage black people in the particular usage of the word in question. Rather an argument about society is presented with zealous adherence to unrestricted expression. Free expression is something everyone values. Where that value stands in relation to others is the question. Some would see avoiding inflicting harm unnecessarily as a value which takes precedence over absolute free expression.

Does use of a racist term make you a racist? I believe that context determines the answer to that. Does any use of a racist term automatically qualify as hate speech? This cuts closer to the issue and is worthy of discussion. I have my own opinion on the matter but I would hope that some sort of consensus could be reached.

As for the standards that apply at another forum, I don't visit that many on a regular basis myself. One that I know of has a simple guiding principle: "play nice." As in, don't engage in personal attacks. No restrictions on language, but somebody who more or less casually used a powerful racial slur would definitely get an earful from other members.

Another has a similar central principle, but with much wider latitude: "no personal harassment." As in, personal attacks are fine, but no go if you start chasing somebody around to pursue a flame war, you baby.  Again, language is not restricted, and again, fellow members will definitely and viciously call you out for self-indulgence in that sphere. To wit: I got berated rather nastily for denying that the tune of "Turkey in the Straw" is inherently racist.  :shrug:

For non-atheist discussion boards, the rules tend to be more strict. I enjoyed a small political discussion board that was completely unmoderated for several years. When a moderator was appointed and began to enforce his version of "family friendly" I admit I lost interest.
 
Personally I am not in favor of banning words, even words that are seen by many as inherently harmful and pernicious. I also think that it is vital to call out and denounce the use of such words, even in a context in which the word is not intended as hate speech.

For doing that, you deserve thanks rather than banning, Magdalena.

My limited experience has warped my gauge: In moderator discussion I would not argue for a suspension for the post in question, as I hope I have explained above. However as I said, my approach is to attempt to reach consensus. If enough of the other members of staff were to support a suspension I would accept the consensus.

The last few people that we roped into helping on moderation staff have wandered, and it is almost entirely Tank and myself now. He and I haven't discussed this in the moderation space--my comments are here. This site is mostly self-moderating now anyway. . .

To satisfy honor, I would impose a one week ban on the both of yas, but only with his agreement.  :spaghetti:  :felix:

 :spock:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Magdalena

Please ban me indefinitely.
I'm done here.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Biggus Dickus

I guess to get banned I'll have to resort to personal attacks, so here goes!


Recusant: "You sir, are a silly mod...your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries".

Tank: "I fart in your general direction".

- nos vamos!
"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Asmodean

Quote from: Bebé Bruno on November 04, 2022, 07:40:53 PMTank: "I fart in your general direction".
Didn't ban The Asmo for cursing his rusty turret over an impersonation issue, and this is pretty much that. ;)

The admins who manage member relations (Tank and Recusant) will generally not act single-handedly in matters involving established members. If it's quiet from their end, they probably have not reached consensus on a course of action. It can take time.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tank

Quote from: Bebé Bruno on November 04, 2022, 07:40:53 PMI guess to get banned I'll have to resort to personal attacks, so here goes!


Recusant: "You sir, are a silly mod...your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries".

Tank: "I fart in your general direction".

- nos vamos!

:rofl:
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.