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halloween

Started by billy rubin, October 28, 2022, 10:30:44 PM

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billy rubin

in america we do this weird thing on all hallows eve where we dress up as things that we are not.

theres lots of ghostly and spooky dressing, some pretty awful grusesome and ghoulish stuff, and lots of innocent costuming.

kids in the states wander around knocking on doors to get a handful of candy from the occupants, iy ==f they are participating.

as a child, i dressed up as a hobo, a devil, a camel, and probably other stuff that i cannot remember.

lately dressing up as something you are not has become controversial:

https://www.ohio.edu/diversity/diversity-leadership-ambassadors-program/cultural-appropriation

"cultural appropriation" is a strange idea to me. it is one thing to dress up in blackface as a caricature of real african people. but is it a sin to dress up as a black musician?

what if i want to dress up as stevie wonder, or ray charles?

people do.

or wearing a kimono. the above website from a university on my state appears to assert that only japanese people can wear a kimono, only mexican people can wear a sombrero, only american indians can dress as american indians . . .

is this right?

i have read japanese people who state that they are honored to have their culture recognized and honored by someone who takes th trouble to research and dress as a member of their culture.

but i have also seen american businessmen in arizona make up fake kachina dances for their shriner-style parade acts where they wore genuine kachina costumes but made up the rest. in my opinion that crosses a line.

but where is that line? is ohio university correct, in that wearing the clothing of another culture is a social crime? what does a japanese student at ohio university wear on school days? do american indian students appropriate gringo culture by wearing blue jeans?

can a chinese student wear american  shoes without giving offence?

what is going on?


and how can you smile when your reasons for smiling are wrong?

billy rubin



and how can you smile when your reasons for smiling are wrong?

Magdalena

Quote from: billy rubin on October 28, 2022, 10:30:44 PMin america we do this weird thing on all hallows eve where we dress up as things that we are not.

theres lots of ghostly and spooky dressing, some pretty awful grusesome and ghoulish stuff, and lots of innocent costuming.

kids in the states wander around knocking on doors to get a handful of candy from the occupants, iy ==f they are participating.

as a child, i dressed up as a hobo, a devil, a camel, and probably other stuff that i cannot remember.

lately dressing up as something you are not has become controversial:

https://www.ohio.edu/diversity/diversity-leadership-ambassadors-program/cultural-appropriation

"cultural appropriation" is a strange idea to me. it is one thing to dress up in blackface as a caricature of real african people. but is it a sin to dress up as a black musician?

what if i want to dress up as stevie wonder, or ray charles?

people do.

or wearing a kimono. the above website from a university on my state appears to assert that only japanese people can wear a kimono, only mexican people can wear a sombrero, only american indians can dress as american indians . . .

is this right?

i have read japanese people who state that they are honored to have their culture recognized and honored by someone who takes th trouble to research and dress as a member of their culture.

but i have also seen american businessmen in arizona make up fake kachina dances for their shriner-style parade acts where they wore genuine kachina costumes but made up the rest. in my opinion that crosses a line.

but where is that line? is ohio university correct, in that wearing the clothing of another culture is a social crime? what does a japanese student at ohio university wear on school days? do american indian students appropriate gringo culture by wearing blue jeans?

can a chinese student wear american  shoes without giving offence?

what is going on?

Good to see that you're asking about these things. At the same time, I'm surprised.

Quote"cultural appropriation" is a strange idea to me. it is one thing to dress up in blackface as a caricature of real african people. but is it a sin to dress up as a black musician?

what if i want to dress up as stevie wonder, or ray charles?

I thought everyone knew about this.
Blackface: A Cultural History of a Racist Art Form.

Cultural appropriation is one thing, Blackface is different, but sort of the same. I think we have to understand Blackface first to understand Cultural Appropriation.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

blackface is easy. its a horrible misrepresentation of another people, whether were talking al jolson singing in the first talkie, or black peter walking down the street with santa at christmas.

those fake kachina dancers in arizona added religion-- a bunch of gringo busoinessmen  dressed up as real hopi kachinas-- reaL gods that real people worshipped, then made up funny routines of dancing and so on that they oeformed in public.

this is the equivalent of a bunch of muslims dressing up as christ carrying a cross and roman soldiers whipping him as part of a cruxifixion parade, where they skipped and sang funny songs down the street in front of christians on the sidewalk.

my interest is in the nuances. i have been told that only chinese people can wear chines clothes. that only amerindians can wear a feather in their hair.

im a nominal amerindian, but im culturally a gringo. can i eat chinese food? can i wear the malay sarongs that have been my casual choice of housewear for almost sixty years?

halloween is a a holiday designed around dressing up as something that you are not, and about not taking it seriously. what are the rules? can my son dress as a medeival knight in the armour that he competes in? can he compete at all, given that he is actually not a 12th century slavic warrior?



and how can you smile when your reasons for smiling are wrong?

Magdalena

Quote from: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 07:18:15 PMblackface is easy. its a horrible misrepresentation of another people, whether were talking al jolson singing in the first talkie, or black peter walking down the street with santa at christmas.

those fake kachina dancers in arizona added religion-- a bunch of gringo busoinessmen  dressed up as real hopi kachinas-- reaL gods that real people worshipped, then made up funny routines of dancing and so on that they oeformed in public.

this is the equivalent of a bunch of muslims dressing up as christ carrying a cross and roman soldiers whipping him as part of a cruxifixion parade, where they skipped and sang funny songs down the street in front of christians on the sidewalk.

my interest is in the nuances. i have been told that only chinese people can wear chines clothes. that only amerindians can wear a feather in their hair.

im a nominal amerindian, but im culturally a gringo. can i eat chinese food? can i wear the malay sarongs that have been my casual choice of housewear for almost sixty years?

halloween is a a holiday designed around dressing up as something that you are not, and about not taking it seriously. what are the rules? can my son dress as a medeival knight in the armour that he competes in? can he compete at all, given that he is actually not a 12th century slavic warrior?



Appropriation or Appreciation?
Context is key.

It's one thing to wear it at a special event because of admiratIon for that culture, it's another to mock it during Halloween. I, personally, don't lose any sleep over it. It would be giving ignorant people too much attention.

I'm not sure, but I think you answered yourself. "in America we do this weird thing on all hallows eve where we dress up as things that we are not."
"Halloween is a holiday designed around dressing up as something that you are not, and about not taking it seriously."
What are the rules?

—I don't know, it's your guys' holiday, you guys should know.

Like the article you posted says, "My Culture Is Not a Costume."
Is Halloween about being scary? If so, how is Blackface scary?
How is wearing a Kimono Dress scary?
How is wearing a Charro hat
scary?
If it's not, then are people hoping to get a laugh? How is that funny?

People with a relatively privileged status paint their faces black, walk around in the street for a few hours at night, go home, take it off and all is good under their blue suburban sky.
How fun, right!? You got to be black for a few hours, then you took off the "costume."
Can black people take off the,
--"being black costume?"
Can the undocumented take off the,
--"illegal alien" costume?
Were you treated the same way they were treated for that one night? Would you want to?

A medieval knight in armor. Are there many medieval knights walking around who will be offended? —I don't know.

I think the equivalent would be to watch a bunch of minorities beating up a  piñata of a president you voted for at the Whitehouse lawn once a year, every year. Some will think it's funny as hell.  Some will say, "That doesn't feel right." And we just say, "Oh, don't take it so seriously."

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

i dunno

ill never figure this stuff out.

im a quaker. i havent done jack shit for any halloween, or any holidays at all, for as long as i can easily remember. its not an issue for me.

what is an issue is the idea that there exist non-reciprocal relationships among people. my number two daughter expressed it in terms of power:

it is okay for a black person to call other black people niggers, but not for a white person to do so.

i get that.

then she said, it is okay for a black person to call a white person a honkie, whether the white person objects or not.

^^^this troubles me. why is it okay to be offensive in one context, but not in another?  why can a blacj person call me an offensive name, but i am not permitted to recipocate?

she explained it was a function of "power dynamics." i understand the issues she raised. but im having difficulty figuring out how the actual act of racial/cultural/ethnic insults is not important, but rather what matters is who is being insulted?

this doesnt make sense to me. if there is such a things as right and wrong, i believe it should exist independently of who is being helped or harmed.

is this an unpopular view?


and how can you smile when your reasons for smiling are wrong?

Magdalena

Quote from: billy rubin on October 29, 2022, 10:43:40 PMi dunno

ill never figure this stuff out.

im a quaker. i havent done jack shit for any halloween, or any holidays at all, for as long as i can easily remember. its not an issue for me.

what is an issue is the idea that there exist non-reciprocal relationships among people. my number two daughter expressed it in terms of power:

it is okay for a black person to call other black people niggers, but not for a white person to do so.

i get that.

then she said, it is okay for a black person to call a white person a honkie, whether the white person objects or not.

^^^this troubles me. why is it okay to be offensive in one context, but not in another?  why can a blacj person call me an offensive name, but i am not permitted to recipocate?

she explained it was a function of "power dynamics." i understand the issues she raised. but im having difficulty figuring out how the actual act of racial/cultural/ethnic insults is not important, but rather what matters is who is being insulted?

this doesnt make sense to me. if there is such a things as right and wrong, i believe it should exist independently of who is being helped or harmed.

is this an unpopular view?

I dunno, Kevin,

I don't think it's OK for anyone to call other people derogatory names: honky,  wetback, nigger, etc.

I think you are permitted to reciprocate. But, if you do, if you respond with another racial slur, you have come down to their level.

Besides, why would you want to hang out with people who feel (in a twisted way), that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution was put there to protect and give them the right to insult you?
Is this like, "legal verbal abuse?"
—According to them?  :-\

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

i dont.

QuoteI don't think it's OK for anyone to call other people derogatory names: honky,  wetback, nigger, etc.

^^^this is th ekey.

why cant we just get along?

i look at all people as equals. if i work to give them respect, i want to see that they share that value, and would choose to extend respect in return.

if they cant or wont do that, then fuck em. i will choose my company among people who share mutual respect as a value.


and how can you smile when your reasons for smiling are wrong?

Magdalena

Quote from: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 01:00:20 AMi don't.

QuoteI don't think it's OK for anyone to call other people derogatory names: honky,  wetback, nigger, etc.

^^^this is the key.

why can't we just get along?
That, my friend, is the sixty-four thousand dollar question.
:sad sigh:

Quote from: billy rubin on October 30, 2022, 01:00:20 AMI look at all people as equals. if I work to give them respect, I want to see that they share that value, and would choose to extend respect in return.

if they can't or won't do that, then fuck them. i will choose my company among people who share mutual respect as a value.
Mutual respect as a value is rare and precious. I, like you, don't understand why can't we just get along either. There are times when I believe in the goodness of humanity, but other times, I think our sense of compassion, acceptance, and just basic decency is deteriorating.

We see someone different and negative stereotypes flood our brains, so we either attack or become defensive before they even speak. This goes for all races, nationalities, ethnicities, etc.

MLK was right, his famous words apply to everyone.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Asmodean

Quote from: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 01:20:55 AMMLK was right, his famous words apply to everyone.

Well... The culture that saw race as a point of significant biological and/or social difference largely gave way to a culture that refused to see it as something at all special or noteworthy, which in turn largely gave way to a culture that refuses to see anything past race. Actually, let me amend that; it refuses to see beyond victimhood, usually of the most superficial variety.

I think that in their chase of whatever utopian dream it is they profess, people may have stared in the proverbial abyss a tad too long, and now... The gadgets get fancier, but history - it repeats, as it does.

Getting along... Yeah, it's a nice dream. Personally, I'd be content with "us" just giving less of a fuck about that, which is none of our business unless specifically invited into it. If I don't care where you come from or to what you pray or how you take your coffee - then I probably don't care to hold any of that against you, no?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Magdalena

Quote from: Asmodean on October 30, 2022, 07:26:35 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on October 30, 2022, 01:20:55 AMMLK was right, his famous words apply to everyone.

Well... The culture that saw race as a point of significant biological and/or social difference largely gave way to a culture that refused to see it as something at all special or noteworthy, which in turn largely gave way to a culture that refuses to see anything past race. Actually, let me amend that; it refuses to see beyond victimhood, usually of the most superficial variety.

I think that in their chase of whatever utopian dream it is they profess, people may have stared in the proverbial abyss a tad too long, and now... The gadgets get fancier, but history - it repeats, as it does.

Getting along... Yeah, it's a nice dream. Personally, I'd be content with "us" just giving less of a fuck about that, which is none of our business unless specifically invited into it. If I don't care where you come from or to what you pray or how you take your coffee - then I probably don't care to hold any of that against you, no?

Only you, Asmo, and maybe Tom62, would find negativity in that quote. I see absolutely nothing about  victimhood there. I don't know how you managed to go from there to there.
...But I will follow your words/advice, and, "...give less of a fuck about that."
 :levitate:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin


im starting to give more of a fuck, period.

i used to just let the racists talk, and not call them on it, because there was no point, you know? theyll never change.

lately ive started to speak my mind more and more, and to let the racists know that theyre not in a safe place around me. i have a ways to go, but i call the fuckers out more and more these days.

its not hard to envision a world where we just get along with each other. i prefer not to live in a world where people express hate and hostility in security. i want them to be on the defensive every time they spew it out, t least around me.

im still getting there, because i tend not to confront people, you know? its a habit thats going away.  ive been cnfronting more and more of these shitheads lately and im not likely to get any nicer as time goes on, because im getting more polarized and less interested in getting along.


and how can you smile when your reasons for smiling are wrong?

No one

Humans with deep stew lines and diverse cross pollination taste the best.

Icarus

Sad to learn that Halloween has not gone well in Seoul.  Some kind of Halloween crowd rush has killed more than 100. WTF  ???

 

Bluenose

I went to a combined halloween/birthday party on Saturday night.  Live band playing 70s and 80s covers.  It was a blast!

+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett