Where does your morals/ethics come from?

[Loffler]

I thought the old testament had God tell his loyal followers to go kill all sortsa of people, who was it that ran around smoting folks with the jawbone of an ass?

Samson.

[tdh26]

If someone acts like a Christian, but doesn't believe in God, are they a Christian?

Is that a trick question?

[Loffler]

If someone acts like a Christian, but doesn't believe in God, are they a Christian?

Is that a trick question?

Yes, a trick question started by you. You did most of the work for me by saying people who act like atheists are atheists.

[Jolly Sapper]

If someone acts like a Christian, but doesn't believe in God, are they a Christian?

Is that a trick question?

No, its the same question I ask the angry street preachers when they tell me (or yell and scream at me) that EVERYBODY is going to hell that hasn't "heard the word of God/Jesus/King James version of the Bible."

What if there is a tribe of people in the most remote region on the planet that totally by accident live in total compliance with what we call the 10 Commandments and the other laws of Moses as well as the teachings of Jesus the Christ.  None of these people now anything about what you call Christianity.  So would they all be damned to hell or would they get their tickets to the happy place by virtue of living a pure and virtuous life? (and no pulling the whole, "Its impossible for this to happen because all human beings are born chock full of sin and are going to hell regardless of their virtuous life and ignorance of their own "sin debt.")

[tdh26]

No, its the same question I ask the angry street preachers when they tell me (or yell and scream at me) that EVERYBODY is going to hell that hasn't "heard the word of God/Jesus/King James version of the Bible."

If you have had someone say that to you, that's disgusting.
I'd love to comment on the rest of your post but it would be very lengthly and my cat wants to play.

[Loffler]

No, its the same question I ask the angry street preachers when they tell me (or yell and scream at me) that EVERYBODY is going to hell that hasn't "heard the word of God/Jesus/King James version of the Bible."

If you have had someone say that to you, that's disgusting.
I'd love to comment on the rest of your post but it would be very lengthly and my cat wants to play.

How about answering my question instead, since it follows logically from your statement about atheists. Is everyone who acts like a Christian a Christian?

[afreethinker30]

Well if this is a question of morals then anyone who gets morals from the christian bible has some major issues...I'm so tired of hearing that the bible makes you a good person.All it does it spread hate.You can't honestly read this and tell me this promotes love!

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

I Corinthians 14:34-35   Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


Proverbs 23:13  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod [sceptre], he shall not die.


Genesis 22:1-2  God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...

Matthew 10:34-35  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother...

Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

[atheist2308]

Why does the question "where do we get our morals from?" make you laugh? Do you not have any standards to go by or base them on?

No, I'm not laughing yet. Yes, I have standards/morals but I don't base them on a 2,000 year old book.

As for religion killing more people... that's debatable in the sense of my first sentence. Name a religion that's says in it's doctrine: "Go kill people" (beside Islam) The crusades were more about defensive actions than anything, and don't get me started about the distortions made about the inquisitions.

I don't think I said "Go kill people". I was more or less talking about wars fought in the name of god, sacrifices of people and animals if you like. One example is that the Mayan in only one of there sacrifices to there gods, they killed over 80,000 of there own people. And for what?, just to spill there blood as an offering. That was just one of the events of just one of the many religions. There may not be a doctrine telling them anything but something is.

[atheist2308]

If someone acts like a Christian, but doesn't believe in God, are they a Christian?

Not to me. I think that that needs to be worded differently, "If someone acts like a good person,.....".  I believe it depends on the kinda person they are, how they were raised, and many other factors that make a person act the way they do, talking about atheist that is. I'm atheist and have been my whole life cause I've never really believed in god. I thought it was all nonsense, even as a child, but I'm also a good person. I've never killed anyone, been in jail or anything like that. I like to help people and I like to recycle and I have many other good qualities. I'm living proof that you don't need to be a believer to be a good person.

[mrwynd]

As for religion killing more people... that's debateable in the sense of my first sentence. Name a religion that's says in it's doctrine: "Go kill people" (beside islam) The crusades were more about defensive actions than anything, and don't get me started about the distortions made about the inquistions.

Your Bible

First, we'd like to think that Christianity and it's parent religion Judaism are peaceful religions, but it's just not true. This first passage shows how plainly it is spelled out in the bible that there is nothing wrong with killing people and taking their stuff - as long as they are "at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby". Yeah - real ethical there! I would also like to point out that these passages are right next to the passage that condemns homosexuality and various other sexual "laws". Christians still blow that trumpet, most of them anyway. The best part? This is the same book of the bible the "10 Commandments of God" are written.

Deuteronomy 20:10-
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

skip a bit more nonsense....and another real ethical view is shown in the bible...

Deuteronomy 21:10-
 10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Now that we're on a roll lets go into "go kill people" that's not just "war", since Christians obviously still believe it's ok to kill people in war, most of them anyway.

Bad son? Stone him!

Deuteronomy 21:18-
 18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Your wife wasn't a virgin when she married you? Stone her!

Deuteronomy 22:13-
 13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Now, there are a lot more quotes that are just appalling in the Christian Bible to a modern day person, because we have changed our ethical views. I can give you more quotes, or you can just open your bible and read it for yourself.

[afreethinker30]

How many theists have really sat and read the bible?I'm pretty sure most of them haven't cracked open a bible ever.How many preachers,ministers,priests mention these parts of the bible at serivces?Of course alot a people can sit and say God is good ..If they don't read the bible.Morals have been around alot longer then a modern god.

[myleviathan]

I’ve had a few atheistic friends over the years, although I could never grasp their reasoning. (I’ll let you label me an idiot up front just to save you time) A question I’ve always had is, if I were an atheist, and we were having a discussion and you pissed me off enough to kill you, and I did, why would that be wrong? Actually, the scenario doesn’t really matter. If I kill you for any reason, what’s the problem?
You may have moral reasons, although I don’t know why. The only difference between humans and the animal kingdom is we have an intelligence they don’t. So what? If you say that intelligence gives us a moral reasoning or some sort, Who cares. That would be your opinion, not mine. If I get by with it and don’t get caught, I’m scot-free, right? If you say in killing you I may have taken you away from family and friends who love you. Again, so what? Why would I care?

I admit, to me an atheist would be someone who believes in evolution or something other than a creator. We are just random chance little better than the animal kingdom, or no better. Doesn’t that mean we can just makeup our own rules? Do what ever we want as long as we can get by with it and not get caught by our own collective man made rules? What would limit us? Civility and laws are just a collective thought (rule) that maybe I in particular may not agree with. What would stop me from killing you? And why would that be bad?

I’m just curious what would be your reasoning from an atheistic point of view. I haven’t received a “reasonable” answer so far.

I don't think you're an idiot. I've heard your sentiment many numbers of times. It's a common Christian meme that basically states that atheism encourages people to run around killing and raping one another because they would be in your words, 'scot-free' to do so. In other words atheists can do whatever they want because they don't fear everlasting punishment for sin.

First of all, your statement belies that your belief system is at least partly based on fear of judgement, or should be.

Second of all, belief in the afterlife has never prevented someone with a predisposition for murder from killing a person. Wouldn't you agree that there have been both theistic and atheistic murdering bastards?

So lets think about this further. If both theists and atheists are capable of murder, maybe there's more at work. Maybe our internal moral workings have more to do with a feeling of appreciation for human life, independent of our belief in God.

To answer your question if I thought killing someone is wrong, I would say yes. But not because God made it so. I would say it's wrong because killing another human being is not healthy for the human family. My code of ethics is based on a secular worldview that involves appreciation for everyone as one human family, no matter how they feel about God. I believe this worldview superior to theism. It's based on universal acceptance of people for the simple fact that they are people, as opposed to the idea of eternal isolation (or possibly torture) for non-believers . This atheistic view is beyond your belief in punishment for sin, which is what you seem to think keeps people from killing others (which is simply not true).

[Tom62]

To answer your question if I thought killing someone is wrong, I would say yes. But not because God made it so. I would say it's wrong because killing another human being is not healthy for the human family. My code of ethics is based on a secular worldview that involves appreciation for everyone as one human family, no matter how they feel about God. I believe this worldview superior to theism. It's based on universal acceptance of people for the simple fact that they are people, as opposed to the idea of eternal isolation (or possibly torture) for non-believers . This atheistic view is beyond your belief in punishment for sin, which is what you seem to think keeps people from killing others (which is simply not true).

That is absolutely true. I believe that we have only one life. This makes life for me something that is extremely wonderful and valuable. The idea of killing other people therefore abhors me. To be honest, I find all Abrahamic religions scary because they promise an after-life for which their followers are willing to die (and kill) for. It is also an historical fact that many theists are willing to put all their morals aside, when their clergy tells them to do so in the name of their God(s). Finally I can't believe why modern men would want to take morals from thousands of years old scriptures, that are loaded which absurdities, injustices, cruelties, violence and contradictions.

[tdh26]

How about answering my question instead, since it follows logically from your statement about atheists. Is everyone who acts like a Christian a Christian?

Let me take a stab at this because I started it anyway. Is everyone who acts like a Christian a Christian? Of course my first response would be NO, but.... if you act like a Christian, why would you not become one? (All the perks you know!) There must be a reason. In the same sense, If a person who claims to be a Christian but acts in complete contradition to that belief, why not become who you are acting as? This of course is just being true to yourself. Something I'm not very good at by the way. This probably isn't a good answer but there it is.

[atheist2308]

(All the perks you know!)

Perks?
Oh, you mean like, giving your hard earned money, which you pay taxes on, to a church that doesn't have to pay taxes. And what do they really do with all that money anyways??

Like, spending a lot of time going to church instead of maybe doing something productive?

Like, having someone watching your every move, know your every thought and hear everything you say, even in you "private" moments?


Damn! Those are some good perks! Wasting money, wasting time and being paranoid. As good as that may sound, I don't think so, lol.