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Started by billy rubin, August 07, 2022, 11:52:47 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 10, 2022, 09:04:00 AMCan you explain the decline in the standard of living among Americans? Is it the indexed income plus services plus luxuries thing? Or do you mean something more/different?That said, let's jump off that bridge when we get to it - which is now.1. On SocialismSocialism is an economic/political system where the collective largely owns the means of production. I do despise the buzzwords, so let me rephrase slightly; it is a system, in which the society (usually C/O the state) largely owns land, capital and labour.That necessitates that you as a cog in the proverbial Socialist machine do not even own all your own labour - remember, it's workers and other such terms in plural - "never" the singular you.
QuotePeople not getting invested in something not their own is one of the reasons why Socialism fails, unless it has a solid cushion of something else to support it. Say I'm the entrepreneurial type. Why would I work as hard for the betterment of the land, not my own as I would for that, in which I have a personal stake? Why would I work towards creation of wealth I won't get to keep? Why would I compete and innovate and in the process contribute to someone not thusly inclined getting a pay check for their nine-to-five in my enterprise?
QuoteAnd so innovation stagnates, the drive for equity kills competitiveness, the wealth-generating entrepreneurs swim for sweeter waters in numbers that let themselves be felt and towards the end, the nation is reduced to little more than natural resource sales, which loses its edge due to that very same lack of innovation and often ends up getting plundered by the wider world.
QuoteChina (and, to a degree, Viet Nam) are in fact succeeding as they are, in spite of their Socialist ways, because in several practical ways, their Socialism does not extend to the entrepreneurial classes. They can compete on what almost amounts to the free market, though often coasting on a cushion of very low labour cost, supplied by the Socialist "rest."...But I do waffle on. Let's get back to the core of the issue.Fully implementing and maintaining Socialism necessitates a tyrannical government OR a population fully willing to give up their land, capital or effort without say in it. You do not decide to sell what's yours to whatever bidder may please you - in a Socialist society, it's not yours to sell. You are not yours to sell. Additionally, ruling towards the betterment or the good of the whole of society to the exclusion of the individual offers no safeguards from being ruled against. An example for clarity; There is one rich (Note how I did not say "wealthy." There is a reason) person and one hundred destitute people. One could argue that by taking everything from the rich person, and distributing it to the poor, the whole would be better off - now, you have a society of a hundred people of modest means and one destitute person. Socialism allows for that - the formerly-rich person's riches were not his to begin with, after all - they were everybody's.
QuoteSo to put it in (too) simple terms, and Anarcho-anything would probably disagree with my reasoning here vehemently, but they do them - while in a Capitalist society, you pay rent for living or operating a business in it in the form of taxes, and said rent goes towards mowing the lawn and tarring the roof and such, in a Socialist society, you live and operate "rent-free," (those taxes are money that was never yours to begin with) but only in the sense that you live and operate at the mercy and discretion of the collective and, historically speaking, nobody mows the lawn or tars the roof - or when it does get done, it's not done well.I think this will do for a round one.
Quote from: billy rubin on August 11, 2022, 04:28:45 PMyou are describing the results of the system we have now, whatever label it goes under
Quoteditto. who owns how much of america today? here is a chart of american capitalism, working as designed.
Quoteentrepeneurs do not generate wealth, they trickle down minimal compensation for the labourers who do the actual generating.
Quotehow many of jeff bezos's employees are getting their wealth generated while he fights unionization?
Quotehow many of elon musks employess are happy working at "the plantation?"
Quoteyou are describing the results of capitalism again, asmo. thats what we have now.
Quotewhatever the nuances of political science might be, here are the real-world results of american capitalism in place now:
Quotei am in favour of changing the system that is designed to generate these results to one in which there are fewer destitute people and fewer who are obscenely wealthy.im open to anything that will do that.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PMIn Asmo's grey lump, wrath and dark clouds gather force.Luxembourg trembles.
Quotehow many of elon musks employess are happy working at "the plantation
QuoteCalifornia's civil rights agency accusing Elon Musk's company of racial discrimination, including work environment where Black staffers were subjected to N-Word and other slursCalifornia's civil rights agency is alleging that Black workers at Tesla's California plant were subject to N-word and other racial slurs by fellow employees as well as managers and supervisors.According to the lawsuit, Elon Musk's tech company segregated Black workers into areas that other employees referred to as "porch monkey stations," "the dark side," "the slave ship," and "the plantation."
Quote from: billy rubin on August 16, 2022, 02:31:22 AMsome context?Lawsuit Alleges Tesla Segregated Black Workers Into Area Referred to As 'The Plantation'QuoteCalifornia's civil rights agency accusing Elon Musk's company of racial discrimination, including work environment where Black staffers were subjected to N-Word and other slursCalifornia's civil rights agency is alleging that Black workers at Tesla's California plant were subject to N-word and other racial slurs by fellow employees as well as managers and supervisors.According to the lawsuit, Elon Musk's tech company segregated Black workers into areas that other employees referred to as "porch monkey stations," "the dark side," "the slave ship," and "the plantation."https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/tesla-faces-california-lawsuit-after-allegations-of-racism/
Quote from: No one on August 16, 2022, 03:15:40 AMI still firmly, and wholeheartedly believe in Nooneism. No one should be the Grand Master Chief Commander Sultan of Human affairs. If no one made the rules, everyone would benefit.
Quote from: No one on August 16, 2022, 12:17:36 PMAre you implying that Musk is quite pungent with the way his entrepreneur waves are sent?
Quote from: billy rubin on August 16, 2022, 11:14:49 AMthe way capitalism succeeds is through gaining economic power tby concentrating capital in thr posession of capitalists, which means economic power is to be removed from workers.
Quoteas in amazon, starbucks, and tesla. west virginia coal mines. textile mills. sugar cane plantations. brazilian gold mines .the disparity of economic power is maintained by the disparity of social power.
Quotemusk is from south africa, and his racism did not originate in capitalism. but the use of his economic and social power to facilitate his racism and abuse the vulnerable people in his employ is precisely an inevitable result of social disparity.
Quotethe goal of capitalism is power.
Quotepower corruptscapitalism corrupts.
Quotemusk is an example of capitalism working as designed.
Quote from: Asmodean on August 16, 2022, 01:18:14 PMQuote from: billy rubin on August 16, 2022, 11:14:49 AMthe way capitalism succeeds is through gaining economic power tby concentrating capital in thr posession of capitalists, which means economic power is to be removed from workers.Actually, no. Capitalism does not "care" about "Capitalists" and "workers." Again, at its core, it is a barter system. It "cares" about transactions.
Quote from: billy rubin on August 16, 2022, 02:09:10 PMyoure talking about capitalism as it is described in textbooks about economic theory, asmo.
Quoteim talking about the economic practices in place in my country which are called "capitalism."the way my country's economic system works is my focus. if "capitalism" is the wrong word, we can call it something else.