US Supreme Court Leans Toward Repudiating Separation of Church and State

Started by Recusant, June 21, 2022, 08:14:31 PM

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Tom62

In what way does the coach represents the US state or church?
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

he represents neither.

there ate several schools of thought in america about government and religion, and the one i believe is correct is "religious tolrration."

government should be neutral towards religion or the lack of it. benefits and restrictions applied to one should be applied to both, and so on.

in this case the coach wanted to pray after the games. nothing wrpng with that. you can pray anywhere at anytime in america, so long as you do not disturb people unduly.

but this coach didnt want to just pray. he wanted to pray loudly, in the center of the football field, immediately after the game, the coach wanted his prayer to be part of the secular practice of a dport in a secular institition, and by doong so made the school game a part of his religious practice.

i saw my own kids in american public school pressured into reciting loyalty oaths, prayers, and military ritials, because they were offered by someone in authority and my kids didnt want to be singled out.

thats the problem. to help show my kids that they dont have to accede to the cultural demands of the local dominant culture, i dont stand for prayers or flag ceremonies or loyalty oaths, dont take off my hat, and sit while people pray.

if you look at the pictures, the coach made a religious spectacle in a place where neutrality has been agreed on. thats the problem i have with it


News has been received from the Punjab that the Amritsar mob has again broken out in a violent attack against the authorities. The rebels were repulsed by the military and they suffered 200 casualties.

Anne D.

Quote from: Tom62 on June 29, 2022, 08:47:20 PMIn what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

As an employee of a public school district, he was an official of the state, and he was leading his students in a public prayer, despite what Justice Gorsuch says.

billy rubin



News has been received from the Punjab that the Amritsar mob has again broken out in a violent attack against the authorities. The rebels were repulsed by the military and they suffered 200 casualties.

Anne D.

Quote from: billy rubin on June 30, 2022, 02:23:16 AMhttps://abc7.com/nc-workers-fired-not-joining-aurora-pro-services-daily-prayer-devotion-eeoc-atheist/12001573/

^^^ This is a religious discrimination issue, by a private employer, as opposed to a separation-of-church-and-state issue. But it is nevertheless gross that the two were fired.


Tom62

Quote from: Anne D. on June 30, 2022, 01:56:05 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on June 29, 2022, 08:47:20 PMIn what way does the coach represents the US state or church?

As an employee of a public school district, he was an official of the state, and he was leading his students in a public prayer, despite what Justice Gorsuch says.

Thanks for the clarification. The coach should have prayed at home.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Bluenose

I find it amazing the way religious types are able to not notice how what they do goes against the very principles they espouse.  They may be outspoken American patriots, yet they act against the very foundations set out by the American founding fathers.  They claim to be pro-life, but once a child is actually born, they leave the child and its mother to their own devices - no actual support for the living kiddies.  Furthermore, they oppose abortion, but they are often the greatest users of abortion services.   They spout all sorts of twaddle about moral behaviour regarding sexual matters, but they are the greatest perpetrators of child sexual abuse, and they are amongst the largest consumers of pornography, despite denouncing it as evil.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Recusant

An analysis of this decision, which points out that an honest evaluation of the facts of the case would show that even if Gorsuch has buried the Lemon test, there is another precedent in Lee v. Weisman which clearly applies. Gorsuch's dishonesty on the facts allowed him to dodge addressing that precedent. The current court won't let that stop it, but they'll have up their level of duplicity to overturn Lee.

"The Supreme Court hands the religious right a big victory by lying about the facts of a case" | Vox

QuoteIn any event, while Gorsuch's opinion does overrule Lemon, it does not purport to overrule Lee. And, as explained above, Lee permits public school employees to engage in the kind of private, quiet prayer that Gorsuch falsely claims Kennedy engaged in after football games.

That means that the doctrinal implications of Gorsuch's Kennedy opinion on future cases in which public school employees coerce their students into religious exercise are far from clear. If Gorsuch had held that the Constitution permits Kennedy to do what he actually did, then that would be a hugely consequential decision that would gut the Court's previous decision in Lee.

But, because Gorsuch paints such a misleading picture, involving a coach who offered a "short, private, personal prayer," the more limited holding of Kennedy is that this hypothetical activity is allowed. And, again, Lee already permits public school employees to engage in private, personal prayers.

Kennedy will no doubt inspire other teachers and coaches to behave similarly to Coach Kennedy, but those teachers and coaches will do so at their own peril. Gorsuch's opinion doesn't weigh whether a coach is allowed to do what Kennedy actually did. That remains an open question, because the Court did not actually decide that case.

[Link to full article.]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Recusant

The stinking bastard authoritarian Christians think they have a right to rule one way or another. They're beginning to lose the hearts and minds of the population, so they'll just drag the country to their god by law. In Jesus's name, they will put a governmental yoke on the nation even as they're losing the cultural dominance they once had.

"For This Supreme Court, Justice Isn't Blind. Faith Is." | New York Times

QuoteImagine your boss fervently proclaiming his religious beliefs at the end of a companywide meeting, inviting everyone on the team who shares those beliefs to join in. You're surrounded by colleagues and other higher-ups. Everyone is watching to see who participates and who holds back, knowing that whatever each of you does could make or break your job and even your career, whether you share his convictions or not. But hey, totally up to you!

That's what Joseph Kennedy, a former assistant coach in Kitsap County, Wash., did with his team — only he did it with public-school students at a high-school football game. When the superintendent made clear that by actively inviting players to join him at the 50-yard line for postgame Christian prayers, he was violating school policy and, by the way, the Constitution's Establishment Clause, Kennedy took to the media, turning a small town's school sporting event into a three-ring circus and ugly social media sideshow, with students effectively forced to perform or suffer the consequences.

[. . .]

[T]his court's right-wing majority is following the dictum of our Trumpian age: Objective truth doesn't matter. Subjective belief — specifically the beliefs of the court's religious-right majority — does. The Kennedy decision wasn't based on the facts but on belief in the face of facts. Moreover, those six justices are determined to foist their beliefs on the rest of the country.

In allowing for greater "religious expression," the court curtailed the liberty of those whose prayers take other forms, Americans who practice non-Christian faiths and people who do not practice religion at all. Kitsap County is home to a variety of religions, including Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism and Baha'ism. A coach-led Christian prayer on the playing field is necessarily exclusionary.

[. . .]

"Kennedy v. Bremerton opens the door for so much more government promotion of religion and a great deal of religious favoritism by government officials," Daniel Mach, director of the A.C.L.U.'s program on freedom of religion and belief, told me. "I think we are likely to see a lot more blatant religious favoritism by school officials who feel emboldened by the decision."

This comes at a moment when, for the first time, a minority of Americans belong to a church, synagogue or mosque — only 47 percent in 2020, down from 70 percent in 1999. The number of nonbelievers is on the rise, with roughly one in four Americans identifying as atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular." Belief in God also fell to an all-time low in 2022, with 81 percent of Americans believing in God, down from 98 percent in the 1950s.

This trend is surely part of what drives the resurgent Christian right, and it may well even be on the minds of the current conservative majority on the Supreme Court, five of whom are Catholics and one of whom was raised Catholic but attends an Episcopal church. With their brand of religious dogma losing its purchase, they're imposing it on the country themselves.

[Continues . . .]

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Icarus

^The description, "Stinking bastard authoritarians" is well taken. Were I writing the commentary, I might not have used such polite adjectives.

Tom62

I assume that we are talking about those creepy evangelical Christians here? They seem to be of a worse kind than that what we've got over here.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

No one

You seem to be forgetting, my holy virtue steadfastly trumps your meager insignificance.


Gnostic Christian Bishop

Separation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL

No one


Tank

Quote from: Gnostic Christian Bishop on August 08, 2022, 04:35:46 PMSeparation of church and state is a notion I do not support.

I see it as impossible to enforce.

A person cannot shut off half his thinking when entering a political office.

I also believe that the teaching of all religions should be mandated.

We are duty bound to show our children the goods and evils of religions.

They should learn as early as possible to reject the homophobia and misogyny of our more vile religions.

All moral people will agree.

Regards
DL


The answer is simple. Don't let believers hold office. If they are conflicted they shouldn't be allowed to stand.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.