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School murder

Started by Ecurb Noselrub, May 04, 2022, 12:17:02 AM

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Tom62

I assume that nothing will change again. The conservatives want to protect schools by fortifying them and having armed guards in place. A proposal from Ted Cruz in 2013 however was filibustered by the liberals. On the other liberal side the solution has always been to propose stronger gun laws, which is something that the conservatives don't seem to like (especially those who are sponsored by the NRA). Unless both parties start to cooperate together, to tackle the problem, more deaths will follow. What also needs to be investigated is why more and more men are depressed, feel isolated and are more willing to use violence against others. Have we been raising a generation of isolated, frustrated, hateful, depressed, mentally unstable people that is addicted to social media and violent video games?
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Asmodean

Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMHave we been raising a generation of isolated, frustrated, hateful, depressed, mentally unstable people that is addicted to social media and violent video games?
Personal opinion? Absolutely.

I don't think violence in movies and video games is necessarily a problem - Norwegian kids watch the same movies and play the same games (Often at a younger age too, if that age-restriction-thing is worth the ink it's printed with, which is debateable, but another conversation) and yet it does not occur to them to solve their issues with a gun, or if it does, they do not go through with it. A lot of them could - they "just" don't.

I have a somewhat-nebulous and not very well structured hypothesis that much of this is due to the way an unfortunate number of kids are being raised these days, that suppresses their instinctive behaviours and allows for very little "figuring shit out for yourself, but not alone" If you mould someone into a shape they don't fit in - there may be cracks. As there will be if, in keeping with the metaphor, you let the clay land where it may.

Again, this is not very well fleshed out. I'll go long-form on it if anybody wants to, but then sometimes parents seem to think, both vocally and rather rudely, that since I myself have always used a rubber, therefore I simply cannot understand what it's like, raising a child, and that I absolutely cannot have a valid opinion on such matters. Nonsense, of course, but more common than you might think.

The Asmo wanders off, ranting about the "lived-experience-or-bust" mentality.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

the uvalde thing is a mess. the cops dithered outside for an hour while the kid killed everyone, in spite of parents being right there begging them to go in.

doesnt look good for the police so far.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: billy rubin on May 27, 2022, 10:54:53 AMthe uvalde thing is a mess. the cops dithered outside for an hour while the kid killed everyone, in spite of parents being right there begging them to go in.

doesnt look good for the police so far.

Yes, some dads were begging for guns to go in themselves. This is going to be a mess. I hope Biden's visit can help the community. Glad that Jill is going - she does well in those situations.


billy rubin

well, its an ob ject lrsson thst tbe job of the police is to show up late, taser yourmother, shoot your dog, and go on paid administrative leave.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Ecurb Noselrub

Ha! I feel bad about laughing in this situation, but there is truth in what you say.

Ecurb Noselrub

From the Uvalde city website: photos of all the victims. Horrific.

https://www.uvaldetx.gov/news_detail_T30_R204.php

Both teachers were female and 14 of the 19 kids were girls.


Anne D.

Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMI assume that nothing will change again. The conservatives want to protect schools by fortifying them and having armed guards in place. A proposal from Ted Cruz in 2013 however was filibustered by the liberals.

Yes, the right-wing solution is almost always more guns. "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." As ecurb pointed out in his previous comment, the data show more guns = more gun deaths. Who would've thought.

Ted Cruz has now branched out with his proposals. He is advocating for fewer doors as a solution to the school shooting epidemic.

Dan Patrick (Republican TX lt. gov.) has said the answer is for people to "unify in faith" and "unify in prayer."

Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMUnless both parties start to cooperate together, to tackle the problem, more deaths will follow.


Quote from: Tom62 on May 27, 2022, 03:56:55 AMWhat also needs to be investigated is why more and more men are depressed, feel isolated and are more willing to use violence against others.

Agreed.

Anne D.

On "good guys" with guns:

billy rubin

#39
i dont see good guys with guns being the solution for stopping mass shootings. thats just a brainless right wing argument. in my experience most gun owners arent very good with their weapons. but it happens. this was 6 hours ago, an hour from my house

BBC News - Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61615236

but in uvalde there were 19 good guys with guns in the hallway, listening to 21 people die. good guys didnt help them.

the situation in uvalde and this one in west virginia are worth comparing. both were very bad situations. one got worse and one didnt.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Bluenose

The obvious fallacy with the good guy with a gun fantasy is, suppose the police do their job properly and enter the live shooter scenario and see someone waving a gun around, what do you suppose is likely to happen next?
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


billy rubin

bluenose, the police will do what they have demonstrated to be their modus operandi-- they will behave incompetently and kill the wrong people. police in america do not do their job properly, because  . . . they are the police.

in america the police are not part of the solution--they are part of the problem in keeping people safe.

we would be better off if the police stayed in their hidey holes and the parents went in to get their kids out. the uvalde standoff is proof of this.

maybe im not represenatative, but if i have a situation involving the safety of my family. i will not call the police for help. there are no police closer than at least an hour to where i live, in an emergency. i will evaluate the situation, myself. determne whether i can best solvve the situation, myself. then attempt tosolve the situation, myself.

i have no trust in my local law enforcement profesionals, and would nopt call them unless absolutely necessary.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 25, 2022, 10:57:50 AMUS "culture", concerning firearms, was not always like this. It is a phenomenon for the past 20 years or so. One way to fix it is to ban assault weapons and body armor. The shooter here was able to buy a WMD and body armor too easily. We can fix that with tighter restrictions on firearms. We can ban magazines that have more than a certain number of bullets. Some things can be done. Like racism, we can't get rid of the inner issues, but we can fix some of the outer ones.

...

QuoteUS "culture", concerning firearms, was not always like this. It is a phenomenon for the past 20 years or so.

I think this goes all the way back to the foundation of this country. The US has always had a dysfunctional obsession with guns.
Here is a list:
The genocide of Native Americans. The Old West--a time when cowboys defended their honor and their horses by way of their Colts

In the 1980s and 1990s we "Went Postal" at work. After that, we had school shootings,
concert shootings, movie theater shootings, nightclub shootings, etc.

I agree with you, like you say, racism has a lot to do with it. Somewhere, someone is poisoning minds, and the angry and mentally unstable men act on it in public places.
Like this guy:
QuoteRepublican congressman Paul Gosar [from Arizona] tweeting that the shooter was a "transsexual leftist illegal alien".

His source for this lie was the right-wing social network 4Chan, which was busy circulating the picture of a transgender artist and wrongly claiming it was the shooter.
::)


I believe back in the 1960s was the only time the NRA supported gun control and this was because the Black Panthers had weapons and they needed/wanted to disarm them. ::)

I think this incident in particular changed things around here.
--Patrol officers needed to upgrade their firepower to be ready for more powerful shit:

The North Hollywood shootout.
QuoteThe North Hollywood shootout was a confrontation between two heavily armed and armored bank robbers, Larry Phillips Jr. and Emil Mătăsăreanu, and members of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) in the North Hollywood district of Los Angeles, California, the United States on February 28, 1997. Both robbers were killed, twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police.[1]

...Standard issue sidearms carried by most local patrol officers at the time were 9mm pistols or .38 Special revolvers; some patrol cars were also equipped with a 12-gauge shotgun. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried Norinco Type 56 rifles (a Chinese AK-47 variant), a Bushmaster XM-15 Dissipator with a 100-round drum magazine, and a Heckler & Koch HK91 rifle, all of which had been illegally modified to be select-fire capable, as well as a Beretta 92FS pistol. The robbers wore homemade body armor which successfully protected them from handgun rounds and shotgun pellets fired by the responding officers. A law enforcement SWAT team eventually arrived with higher-caliber weapons, but they had little effect on the heavy body armor used by the two perpetrators...
...The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their firepower in preparation for similar situations in the future.[1]

I don't know how to solve this problem.  :-\
People who can do something about it, have become desensitized. I don't think the senseless death of so many children touches their hearts anymore.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Ecurb Noselrub

Mags, I agree with your post. When I said the culture was not always like this, I should have confined it to around here in Texas. There were guns, but there was not the obsession with them that we see today. I hardly ever heard "2nd Amendment" growing up. Of course, mass killings started in Austin with Charles Whitman in 1966, so there was always a nut or two doing crazy things. But the average person didn't talk that much about weapons.

Then we had the Luby's massacre in Killeen in the early 90's, and that is when the laws changed about concealed carry. So that was a step toward the gun obsession. But it was when AR-15s were legal again in the early 2000s that the NRA started really screaming about gun ownership, and you began to people thinking that they needed these guns.

We have to do something. At the very least we can have more thorough background checks. We have to go through training and pass tests to get a driver's license. We should have to do at least as much to buy a high-powered rifle.

Asmodean

Quote from: Magdalena on May 30, 2022, 06:55:57 AMPeople who can do something about it, have become desensitized. I don't think the senseless death of so many children touches their hearts anymore.
Life is cheap, and getting cheaper. That's a bit of an unfortunate "side effect of the times," let's call it. Personally, I do see tragedies for what they are - even before, say, looking at pictures and/or reading stories of those affected. It's people much like me, and of whom I may one day become one. I don't have children, but I do understand loss and can step into the shoes of people who experience it - to a degree. Enough to matter.

That said, the motivation to react may very well come from the heart, but the reaction itself should come from the brain alone, I think. I'll never get my sociopathic paradise though, so... Settle for balance of reason and instinct, I suppose.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.