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Police and Deadly Force

Started by Recusant, April 14, 2021, 05:44:12 AM

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Tom62

Quote from: Magdalena on April 16, 2021, 09:11:56 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on April 16, 2021, 09:02:39 PM
I don't think that it has anything to do with racism.
Um, yes, it has to do with racism. "Dark skin people are dangerous" is their motto.

Quote from: Tom62 on April 16, 2021, 09:02:39 PM
It was an arrest that went bad, because of a stupid mistake. One thing is however sure. If the guy would not have resisted his arrest, he would still be alive.
No, if the cop would not have shot him, he would still be alive. Resisting arrest should not be punishable by death.

Looking at the body camera video it is clear that the female cop realised that she made a terrible mistake. She thought that she used a taser instead of a gun. That is not murder but involuntary manslaughter.

The media will call it differently of course because it doesn't fit their racist and bad white cop narrative. They act like prosecutor, judge and executor all at the same time. This fake narrative already causes loads of havoc on the streets with riots and looting. BTW: What ever happened to "innocent, until proven guilty"?

I agree that people should not be killed for resisting arrest. When that does happen, we need to find out whether the use of force was accidental (what seems to be the case here), justified (when your own life of that of others was in danger) or malicious.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

i dont see much ambiguity in an officer killing someone by mistake.

whatever the mans history, he was pulled over for a missing license tag sticker and an air freshener tree hanging from his rearview mirror.

he became afraid, because in the town he lives in, people like him are killed by the police under those circumstances.

and then the police did kill him.

this is why so many black men run from the police and resist them in the first place. they know that the police are likely to kill them, so they run for their lives


more people have been to berlin than i have

Tank

Quote from: billy rubin on April 17, 2021, 03:07:34 PM
i dont see much ambiguity in an officer killing someone by mistake.

whatever the mans history, he was pulled over for a missing license tag sticker and an air freshener tree hanging from his rearview mirror.

he became afraid, because in the town he lives in, people like him are killed by the police under those circumstances.

and then the police did kill him.

this is why so many black men run from the police and resist them in the first place. they know that the police are likely to kill them, so they run for their lives

I have to say that that I agree with this assessment.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Magdalena

Quote from: Tom62 on April 17, 2021, 01:42:34 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on April 16, 2021, 09:11:56 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on April 16, 2021, 09:02:39 PM
I don't think that it has anything to do with racism.
Um, yes, it has to do with racism. "Dark skin people are dangerous" is their motto.

Quote from: Tom62 on April 16, 2021, 09:02:39 PM
It was an arrest that went bad, because of a stupid mistake. One thing is however sure. If the guy would not have resisted his arrest, he would still be alive.
No, if the cop would not have shot him, he would still be alive. Resisting arrest should not be punishable by death.

Looking at the body camera video it is clear that the female cop realised that she made a terrible mistake. She thought that she used a taser instead of a gun. That is not murder but involuntary manslaughter.

The media will call it differently of course because it doesn't fit their racist and bad white cop narrative. They act like prosecutor, judge and executor all at the same time. This fake narrative already causes loads of havoc on the streets with riots and looting. BTW: What ever happened to "innocent, until proven guilty"?

I agree that people should not be killed for resisting arrest. When that does happen, we need to find out whether the use of force was accidental (what seems to be the case here), justified (when your own life of that of others was in danger) or malicious.

I hear what you're saying, but maybe the way you see your police officers is different than the way some of us see the cops here.

The cops are supposed to serve and protect, not murder or commit involuntary manslaughter.

The media reporting the cop's abusive behavior is not a bad thing. They need to be exposed because no one  is policing them.

"BTW: What ever happened to "innocent, until proven guilty"?"
Yes, the police officer will have their day in court, it would be nice if they gave the people they kill the same chance.

You posted this video:
Quote from: Tom62 on March 27, 2021, 08:57:14 PM
Great TV commercial from Denmark


I don't see any black people in the video. Maybe this is why we see things a little different.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Tom62

#19
Well, Daunte Wright was afraid of going to going back to jail, because there was an outstanding arrest warrant for him. The media narrative that he was a harmless, innocent black young man is therefore incorrect.  So he decided to take his chances and make a run for it. Was a that a good idea? I don't think so. It might sounds like a cool thing nowadays but this risks are just too high.

Yes, the cop situation here in Germany is a bit different. The police doesn't have to deal with the constant daily threat of being killed. There are not so many guns hanging around here and it is very difficult to obtain a license. We also have a 5 times lower crime rate per capita than the USA and I believe that our police is better trained to handle certain crisis situations. In general they try to use non lethal force stop instead of kill people. When they do kill someone (approx. 8-10 people per year) then there will be only be major uproar, if the person killed is non-white.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Magdalena

Quote from: Tom62 on April 18, 2021, 07:05:51 AM
Well, Daunte Wright was afraid of going to going back to jail, because there was an outstanding arrest warrant for him. The media narrative that he was a harmless, innocent black young man is therefore incorrect. 
I could have a warrant for my arrest if I fail to pay parking tickets, appear in cour, or pay a fine, that doesn't make me
automatically a "violent minority." So, the cops' narrative that he was a dangerous, and utomatically guilty black young man, enough to kill him or tase him, is therefore incorrect as well.
IMHO.

Quote from: Tom62 on April 18, 2021, 07:05:51 AM
So he decided to take his chances and make a run for it. Was a that a good idea? I don't think so. It might sounds like a cool thing nowadays but this risks are just too high.
I highly doubt he ran to be cool.

Quote from: Tom62 on April 18, 2021, 07:05:51 AM
Yes, the cop situation here in Germany is a bit different. The police doesn't have to deal with the constant daily threat of being killed. There are not so many guns hanging around here and it is very difficult to obtain a license. We also have a 5 times lower crime rate per capita than the USA and I believe that our police is better trained to handle certain crisis situations. In general they try to use non lethal force stop instead of kill people. When they do kill someone (approx. 8-10 people per year) then there will be only be major uproar, if the person killed is non-white.
I wonder why.



Maybe they should've included  non-white people in the video and ask, "Who here has been discriminated because of the color of their skin?"
:shrug:

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

billy rubin

when you are running away from anyone, you are legally no longer considered to be a threat. as well as by common sense.

unless you are runnin*towards* someone, or to retrieve a weapon you are going to use, it is illegal to shoot you.

this is true both for cops and for citizens using a gun in self defense. restraint is legal, not killing.

the cop clearly made a deadly mistake. this is legally manslaughter, at the least.



more people have been to berlin than i have

No one

People of color especially the varying degrees of brown face a battle that those who are not can never fully appreciate.

From Full Metal Jacket:
Neo-Nazi bootboys
That the cops never seem to arrest


I was once arrested for simply walking down the street, because of the way I look.
I was once yanked out of my car, and practically strip searched on the side of the road because of the way that I look.

I know that cops are only human, they make mistakes, sometimes those mistakes are deadly. Deadly mistakes happen every day, in hospitals, in the workplace, on the streets. In these cases, even though it's an honest mistake, and there wasn't any intended ill will, the "guilty" party is still held accountable.

I saw a post where an idea that cops have some sort of malpractice insurance, which I thought was a worthwhile idea. Even in accidental incidents, there should be some form of accountability.

In case you're wondering
https://youtu.be/KJMP0FEz51U

Icarus

This is  thread that has become delicate, or worse, for one of our cherished members.  The fact is that not many of us have ever walked around  in a skin that was not white.  We cannot comprehend the abuse that those "others" have endured, that they are so often regarded as less worthy mortals.   

















 

Tank

Quote from: Icarus on April 20, 2021, 02:24:24 AM
This is  thread that has become delicate, or worse, for one of our cherished members.  The fact is that not many of us have ever walked around  in a skin that was not white.  We cannot comprehend the abuse that those "others" have endured, that they are so often regarded as less worthy mortals.   



Very, very well said.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Recusant

#25
It remains to be seen how it goes on appeal. After taking in more of the testimony than was good for me, I concur with the decision of the jury. As an AP story from last month pointed out*, the issue of looming protests and the possibility that they've influenced the jury's decision has lead to verdicts being overturned in the recent past. I prefer to doubt that will happen in this case.

*
Quote from: APA U.S. appeals court in 1999 vacated white Detroit police officer Larry Nevers' conviction in the beating death of a Black motorist, even though evidence against him seemed strong. The court noted how at least one juror heard that the National Guard was on standby in case Nevers was acquitted and violence ensued.

"The Court cannot imagine a more prejudicial extraneous influence than that of a juror discovering that the City he or she resides in is bracing for a riot," it said. It added that letting the conviction stand would send the wrong message that rights to an impartial jury "do not extend to an obviously guilty defendant."

Similarly, an appeals court in Florida tossed the conviction and ordered a new trial for a plain-clothed Hispanic officer, William Lozano, who fatally shot Black motorcyclist Clement Lloyd in 1989 as Lloyd sought to elude a patrol car trying to stop him for a traffic violation. A passenger on the motorcycle, Allan Blanchard, who was also Black, died in the resulting crash. Protests erupted in Miami.

At the 1991 trial in Miami, jurors found Lozano guilty of manslaughter. The appellate ruling months later that overturned the conviction highlighted how some jurors admitted they feared an acquittal would renew protests.

"We simply cannot approve," the court said, "the result of a trial conducted ... in an atmosphere in which the entire community — including the jury — was so obviously (and) justifiably concerned with the dangers which would follow an acquittal."

At his 1993 retrial in Orlando, more than 200 miles from Miami, Lozano was acquitted.

[Link to full article.]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Recusant

Noting the dates there, and the history they speak to. Particular cases from recent decades, evoking a pattern that extends back centuries.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Davin

I find it difficult to understand how anyone, white supremacists included, want a police force that can abuse their power, take away the rights of citizens, and kill without any accountability.

And yes, I hope that the ruling is not overturned.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tom62

I agree. The police should not be "above" the law and abuse its powers.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

the appeal is going to be difficult.

california representative maxine waters went to minnesota and went on the news threatening street protests if chauvin were not convicted.

in the past, the threat of public protests has allowed convictions like this to be overturned, because the defense asserted that the threat of public unrest influenced the jury to convict.

if waters had just kept her mouth shut until after the trial, then chauvin's lawyers would have nothing to use. but she's not good at that, and because of her, chauvin may go free.


more people have been to berlin than i have