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reparations

Started by billy rubin, May 07, 2023, 03:15:06 PM

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Tom62

Quote from: Icarus on May 08, 2023, 08:10:19 PMAnd then there are the Jews who are the victims of much discrimination,even hatred. Are the Germans obligated to award reparations to the Jewish community?

The reparation payments to the victims of the Nazis ended in 2021. The German government paid in total 80.53 billion Euro till the end of 2021. What still is being worked out is the return of stolen art and other possessions during the NS regime.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Icarus

I have languished in ignorance. I was unaware that any reparations were awarded to the Jewish community or relatives of long ago executed Jews.  :-[

 

billy rubin

i didnt know either


i expected nothing but im still disappointed

Asmodean

Quote from: billy rubin on May 09, 2023, 02:56:45 PMso in your view right and wrong are solely determined by current culture?
Oh, it's more than that. They are determined at the individual level, the level of individual societies and the various international entities. It's... Who can enforce what when.

Quotein other words, putins invasion of ukraine is completely justified because most russians think so?
According to Russia, it is indeed justified. According to Ukraine, it is not. Thus, we are at war - which I, for one, am not above calling what it is. My special proxy military operation is indeed a war.

Let's have a closer look at whence cometh the perception of right and wrong, shall we?

Assume you view all people as equal and your society broadly agrees. Now, in Afghanistan, a woman's value is less than that of a man. Is it any less so because you disagree from outside the scope of local cultural influence? Are you right while they are wrong? Or are you "just some infidel," while they are on the way to heaven? The answer depends on who you ask. It really is as simple as that.

Quote from: Icarus on May 10, 2023, 02:23:39 AMI have languished in ignorance. I was unaware that any reparations were awarded to the Jewish community or relatives of long ago executed Jews.  :-[
It's a bit closer to us, Europeans. I wouldn't say they paid to some community though... In part and in a manner, yes, but mostly to the victims. The wider community of "unaffected" Jews are not necessarily that.

That, by the way, is in part an example of what I was talking about with regard to having a claim against someone that wronged you. Had The Reich won the war, however... A completely different reality with different perception of such things.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tom62

The Wiedergutmachung was a painstakingly complex process to compensate the NS victims. It started just a few years after WW-II, but even at that short period of time it was a very difficult job to identify the victims and their family. Imagine that these reparations would have taken place two or three centuries later. That would have made the reparations practically impossible.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Asmodean

Indeed. After all, merely being a part of the affected population does not mean that you yourself were affected to any degree beyond "everyone else."

A hypothetical Jew who moved to Costa Rica in 1925 would have "sailed through" WW2 about as well as the rest of his new countrymen, so I think an argument for reparations to that individual would be difficult to make.

That's also much of the reason why I balk at the use of terms like "community" in such instances. It's an individual issue rather than an umbrella one. (It is more compound in that communities may receive reparations in terms of for example nations getting paid for the shit that was bombed, burned and broken to be rebuilt - but that's "public" stuff, following broadly the same principle of the wrong having a claim against the one who did the wronging. Both still have to exist for it to work. Additionally, such settlements are not intended for "end consumer." And again, of course, in the ages of conquest, to the victor went the spoils, and the Reich lost.)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

MarcusA

We cannot undo the past but we can surely make up for it.
This user has been banned for spamming the forum.

Asmodean

We can treat every citizen of our respective nations as precisely that, then past a certain point, leave them alone to build their lives as they would.

What rights I have - you have. From there, it's effort and luck.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

MarcusA

It all comes down to money in the end. The people just don't want to pay for shit that they didn't do.
This user has been banned for spamming the forum.

Asmodean

It's more than money, and it's "all" in what you wrote after that statement. Look at it thusly;

Quote from: MarcusA on May 30, 2023, 04:39:37 AMThe people just don't want to pay for shit that they didn't do.

If they did, it's not unreasonable to assume that more people would be on board with making some sort of restitution. Guilt can be a powerful drive in social creatures like humans and such. There is a reason why there are movements out there which try to actively guilt people into taking responsibility for actions not their own.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

MarcusA

The Germans will not live down the Holocaust in a thousand years.
This user has been banned for spamming the forum.

billy rubin

i dont think cash payments are a good idea.

i am completely in favour of expanded scholarships, educational outreach, targeted farm and business loans, and stuff like thst.

fixing whats wrong rather than throwing money and running away.


i expected nothing but im still disappointed

MarcusA

Quote from: billy rubin on June 01, 2023, 12:28:36 AMi dont think cash payments are a good idea.

i am completely in favour of expanded scholarships, educational outreach, targeted farm and business loans, and stuff like thst.

fixing whats wrong rather than throwing money and running away.

Too right, billy, the same goes for me.
This user has been banned for spamming the forum.

Asmodean

I'd say that as long as such arrangements do not directly disadvantage other competitors, that sounds like a fine idea.

Hypothetically, if a bright student had to give up his spot for a less-so one because the latter had money the former did not - that would be a less-than-ideal outcome. On the flip side though, if a less-bright student got "pushed through" at the expense of the brighter one, regardless of their financial situation, that would be a potential disservice to their profession as well
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.