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What Is This World Coming To?

Started by Randy, July 06, 2020, 11:20:05 PM

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Recusant

Yes, a genuine problem of black-on-black murder in the US. Strangely, hardly ever mentioned is white-on-white murder in the US, which tracks very closely if we're going by percentages.

QuoteThe Bureau of Justice statistics data on homicide trends has shown that white-on-white killings are at 88% and the percentage of black-on-black killings is at 91%, yet the perception is that the high level of homicides that occur is just a "black thing."

[source]

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Tom62

Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2020, 03:06:47 PM
Yes, a genuine problem of black-on-black murder in the US. Strangely, hardly ever mentioned is white-on-white murder in the US, which tracks very closely if we're going by percentages.

QuoteThe Bureau of Justice statistics data on homicide trends has shown that white-on-white killings are at 88% and the percentage of black-on-black killings is at 91%, yet the perception is that the high level of homicides that occur is just a "black thing."

[source]

It has to do with the number of homicides in relation to the population. African Americans are only 13% of the US population, but they are disproportionately represented in the violent crime statistics. So yes, I do see a problem here.

QuoteAccording to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher.

Source
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Recusant

Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 06:16:10 PMIt has to do with the number of homicides in relation to the population. African Americans are only 13% of the US population, but they are disproportionately represented in the violent crime statistics. So yes, I do see a problem here.

QuoteAccording to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher.

Source

Hmm, couldn't have anything to do with poverty and disgusting living conditions, I suppose. The US is a violent place that treats its working poor (and the poor in general) appallingly. Pointing to black-on-black violent crime or the fact that black people are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes is nothing but a distraction from the basic issues.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


billy rubin

Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!?  ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.

when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.

the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.

i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.

in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up


more people have been to berlin than i have

Tom62

Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2020, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 06:16:10 PMIt has to do with the number of homicides in relation to the population. African Americans are only 13% of the US population, but they are disproportionately represented in the violent crime statistics. So yes, I do see a problem here.

QuoteAccording to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher.

Source

Hmm, couldn't have anything to do with poverty and appalling living conditions, I suppose.

Well, I think they are part of the problem. Other important factor is the absence of a father at home (most African American families are now fatherless). All studies show that children from fatherless homes are more likely to be poor, become involved in drug and alcohol abuse, drop out of school, and suffer from health and emotional problems. Boys are more likely to become involved in crime, and girls are more likely to become pregnant as teens. 
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Dark Lightning

Quote from: billy rubin on July 10, 2020, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!?  ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.

when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.

the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.

i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.

in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up

Yes, a device for triangulation of loud noises exists. Been around in some form or another for over a century. Don't know if it existed when you lived in SJ, though this article talks about Palo Alto, which isn't that far away. The armed services have fielded them to take out snipers. They don't operate in automatic return fire though, since someone friendly could walk in front of it when it responded to the sniper fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfire_locator


Recusant

Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 09:00:56 PM
Quote from: Recusant on July 10, 2020, 08:38:10 PMHmm, couldn't have anything to do with poverty and appalling living conditions, I suppose.

Well, I think they are part of the problem. Other important factor is the absence of a father at home (most African American families are now fatherless). All studies show that children from fatherless homes are more likely to be poor, become involved in drug and alcohol abuse, drop out of school, and suffer from health and emotional problems. Boys are more likely to become involved in crime, and girls are more likely to become pregnant as teens. 

Yes, single-parent families often don't do as well. The question then arises: "Why so many fatherless homes in the black community?"

"12 charts show how racial disparities persist across wealth, health, education and beyond" | USA Today

QuoteBlack people have long suffered from persistent inequality in the United States due to centuries of racism, discrimination and the long-lasting effects of slavery. This has created conditions that make it difficult for Black Americans to get ahead.

Systemic racism — at times called structural racism or institutional racism — is "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives," says Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward. Systemic racism leads to disparities in many "success indicators," he says, including wealth, health, criminal justice, employment, housing, political representation and education.

And numbers from official sources over decades of time back this up.

Here are one dozen charts, showing how inequities impact not just Black Americans' quality of life, but length of life.

[Continues . . .]
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Tank

Quote from: billy rubin on July 10, 2020, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!?  ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.

when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.

the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.

i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.

in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up

Gunfire location systems have existed for decades. I first heard about them during The Troubles in Northern Ireland.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tom62

Quote from: Recusant on July 11, 2020, 04:06:36 AM
Yes, single-parent families often don't do as well. The question then arises: "Why so many fatherless homes in the black community?"

"12 charts show how racial disparities persist across wealth, health, education and beyond" | USA Today

QuoteBlack people have long suffered from persistent inequality in the United States due to centuries of racism, discrimination and the long-lasting effects of slavery. This has created conditions that make it difficult for Black Americans to get ahead.

Systemic racism — at times called structural racism or institutional racism — is "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives," says Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward. Systemic racism leads to disparities in many "success indicators," he says, including wealth, health, criminal justice, employment, housing, political representation and education.

And numbers from official sources over decades of time back this up.

Here are one dozen charts, showing how inequities impact not just Black Americans' quality of life, but length of life.

[Continues . . .]

There are lots of factors at play here, not only economical but also traditional African influences; the Post-1960s expansion of the U.S. welfare state; decline of black marriages; rise in divorce rates and black male incarnation and mortality rates. Source.

I wouldn't throw everything on a systemic racism heap, that is an easy cop out. No matter what, people are still responsible for their own deeds. There are many African Americans who are doing very well, even though they grew up under pretty bad circumstances. They should be the role models for African American kids.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 10, 2020, 09:47:20 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on July 10, 2020, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on July 09, 2020, 11:12:37 PM
Why not both!?  ;D In my previous neighborhood, we were just a block from the 3rd highest crime reporting district in the City of LA, in the San Fernando Valley. Essentially in the barrio. We heard gunfire all the time (usually midnight- 2AM after the bars closed), and especially on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Not just the Hispanics, either. We had a crazy white guy living next door that launched fireworks and shot his .45 pistol into the air on those days. It sounded like Armageddon in that neighborhood.

when i lived in san jose gunfire was a traditional way to celebrate christmas and new years. then the police advertised that they had some sort of device that would triangulate the source of the gunfire and then they supposedly would be right there to take you into custody. i assume it was BS but you never know.

the man across the street from me got in trouble after he built a shooting range in his basement. i don't think it was particularly dangerous but if youre going to do that in a residential neighborhood you need to pay attention to soundproofing.

i lived down in los gatos for a few years too. rich gringos, so no gunfire. in the barrio you could try to identify what was being shot by the sound and numbers of rounds. everybody always emptied a magazine doing that.

in los banos there was a police shooting range out by one of my beeyards. they would go out there and empty magazines on full auto. i don't know why the los banos police needed submachine guns to deal with the teenagers at the county fair. maybe it helped them gather em up

Yes, a device for triangulation of loud noises exists. Been around in some form or another for over a century. Don't know if it existed when you lived in SJ, though this article talks about Palo Alto, which isn't that far away. The armed services have fielded them to take out snipers. They don't operate in automatic return fire though, since someone friendly could walk in front of it when it responded to the sniper fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfire_locator

shitfire it waz real

i lived in the bay area up to 1993, then moved south to hollister and then out into the valley

i had no idea. i thought it was like the fake television zet detectors that the british drove aroud years ago trying to frighten people into buying a television set licenze


more people have been to berlin than i have

Davin

Quote from: Tom62 on July 10, 2020, 06:49:18 AM
Quote from: Davin on July 09, 2020, 08:06:40 PM
Quote from: Tom62 on July 09, 2020, 07:38:03 AM
Innocent people being killed by the police is a rather rare event, you are more likely to be killed by lightning (even if you are a black man). Yes, any death caused by the police is awful but we should keep things in perspective and not close our eyes for other causes of death.
I find this kind of reasoning rather odd. What are you trying to lead us to? A type of natural event kills more people than the police murdering people, so care less about the police murdering people and let's start asking lightning to stop killing so many people? Odd, irrational, and quite silly.

No, it is not silly. What I am trying to say is that innocent people being killed by the police is a very sad but rare event. We are talking about <1% of all deaths. Solving that particular problem doesn't bring the murder rate much down. The way I see it there are couple of major problems that need to be solve more urgently:

- too many guns in the hand of  the "wrong" people and too much gun obsession
- random killings of innocent men, women and children by gangs or thugs
- black on black homicides (90% of all African American homicides are committed by African Americans)
- proper police training. In many European countries it takes several years of training, before one becomes a police officer; in the USA training only last on average slightly more than 600 hours (source: Wikipedia).

The question is about priorities, not about asking lightning to stop killing people.
Yes, it is still very silly. Having a state that has an armed force that is allowed to murder people is something we can do something about. Controlling the weather is not. So it's a very silly way to try to minimize the state murdering people.

My priorities are that the state should not be allowed to continue to murder people. It's not simply the loss of life that is the problem with doing nothing about the police being allowed to murder people. It's a huge red flag that leads the country towards all of us losing all our rights and having no peaceful way to resolve societal problems that are rooted in the state. That is a very urgent problem, because it has been going on for a while and it keeps getting worse.

It's also very silly that you act like we can't work on more than one problem at a time.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tom62

Quote from: Davin on July 13, 2020, 07:05:37 PM
Yes, it is still very silly. Having a state that has an armed force that is allowed to murder people is something we can do something about. Controlling the weather is not. So it's a very silly way to try to minimize the state murdering people.

My priorities are that the state should not be allowed to continue to murder people. It's not simply the loss of life that is the problem with doing nothing about the police being allowed to murder people. It's a huge red flag that leads the country towards all of us losing all our rights and having no peaceful way to resolve societal problems that are rooted in the state. That is a very urgent problem, because it has been going on for a while and it keeps getting worse.

It's also very silly that you act like we can't work on more than one problem at a time.

I'm with you on that bad cops killing innocent people is a problem. Yes, that problem needs to be solved as well and it can be done in parallel. I never mentioned anywhere that we could not work on one problem at the time. Like I said in my previous post, it is important that your US cops get better training. Badly trained cops is a recipe for disaster. There should also a very good controls in place to keep cops in check. How could for example the cop, who murdered George Floyd, still continue to work after receiving 18 complaints? Three counts and you are out, sounds like a better idea. And while we are at it, why not demilitarise the police as well? The main task of the police is to serve the people; not to start a war against them.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Davin

Quote from: Tom62 on July 11, 2020, 08:21:44 AM
Quote from: Recusant on July 11, 2020, 04:06:36 AM
Yes, single-parent families often don't do as well. The question then arises: "Why so many fatherless homes in the black community?"

"12 charts show how racial disparities persist across wealth, health, education and beyond" | USA Today

QuoteBlack people have long suffered from persistent inequality in the United States due to centuries of racism, discrimination and the long-lasting effects of slavery. This has created conditions that make it difficult for Black Americans to get ahead.

Systemic racism — at times called structural racism or institutional racism — is "the complex interaction of culture, policy and institutions that holds in place the outcomes we see in our lives," says Glenn Harris, president of Race Forward. Systemic racism leads to disparities in many "success indicators," he says, including wealth, health, criminal justice, employment, housing, political representation and education.

And numbers from official sources over decades of time back this up.

Here are one dozen charts, showing how inequities impact not just Black Americans' quality of life, but length of life.

[Continues . . .]

There are lots of factors at play here
Don't you find it weird that you only acknowledge there being lots of factors and that situations are complicated when you've been shown to be wrong? I think it's weird.

Quote from: Tom62not only economical but also traditional African influences; the Post-1960s expansion of the U.S. welfare state; decline of black marriages; rise in divorce rates and black male incarnation and mortality rates. Source.
What "traditional African Influences" are you talking about here specifically? Can you source the "traditional African influences?"

For instance:
https://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/05/06/census-bureau-links-poverty-with-out-of-wedlock-births
Quote
Data revealed a significant link between income and out-of-wedlock births. Of women making less than $10,000 who gave birth in the previous year, 68.9 percent were not married. That statistic dropped progressively going up the household income ladder, with a 9 percent rate for households earning more than $200,000 a year.

Blacks tend to be in the lower income level (Source), due to systematic racism, so maybe it's more to do with income level than it is with whatever these unspecified "traditional African influences" are.

Quote from: Tom62
I wouldn't throw everything on a systemic racism heap, that is an easy cop out. No matter what, people are still responsible for their own deeds. There are many African Americans who are doing very well, even though they grew up under pretty bad circumstances. They should be the role models for African American kids.
No one throws everything into the systematic racism heap, but it is a huge problem that leads to causing a lot of down the line issues. People making it through the cracks of a system is not a good indicator that the system is not corrupt. What is a good sign that systematic racism is less of a problem, is if most of the indicators start to level off in terms of race. For instance: drug use and selling is reported to be about the same percentage in all tracked races, however we incarcerate a larger percentage of blacks for drug offenses than we do whites. We also give harsher sentences to blacks than we do whites. That shows that there is a systematic racism problem.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

Quote from: Tom62 on July 13, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Davin on July 13, 2020, 07:05:37 PM
Yes, it is still very silly. Having a state that has an armed force that is allowed to murder people is something we can do something about. Controlling the weather is not. So it's a very silly way to try to minimize the state murdering people.

My priorities are that the state should not be allowed to continue to murder people. It's not simply the loss of life that is the problem with doing nothing about the police being allowed to murder people. It's a huge red flag that leads the country towards all of us losing all our rights and having no peaceful way to resolve societal problems that are rooted in the state. That is a very urgent problem, because it has been going on for a while and it keeps getting worse.

It's also very silly that you act like we can't work on more than one problem at a time.

I'm with you on that bad cops killing innocent people is a problem. Yes, that problem needs to be solved as well and it can be done in parallel. I never mentioned anywhere that we could not work on one problem at the time.
Right, not expressly, but implicitly you have. What else do you mean saying that we need to keep things in perspective because lightning kills more people that cops do? I can't think of anything other than you trying to say because there is a natural event kills more than cops murdering people we shouldn't worry so much about cops murdering people. So your statement, is still quite silly.

Quote from: Tom62
Like I said in my previous post, it is important that your US cops get better training. Badly trained cops is a recipe for disaster. There should also a very good controls in place to keep cops in check. How could for example the cop, who murdered George Floyd, still continue to work after receiving 18 complaints? Three counts and you are out, sounds like a better idea. And while we are at it, why not demilitarise the police as well? The main task of the police is to serve the people; not to start a war against them.
The training issue is part of the solution for defunding the police. Instead of trying to get cops to be trained in every kind of situation they might face, have different kinds departments set up to handle different types of situations. Having armed police to go out and handle someone with mental problems is usually a bad idea. It often ends up with the use excessive force because they are not complying with the cops orders fast enough and they really don't like that. Also, yeah, cops need to be held accountable to people outside of the police force.

There is a really popular "training" seminar that teaches cops that they are separate and better than the public. Apart from and superior to. And that they are warriors that need to be prepared to kill at any and all times. Maybe we should defund those training seminars.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tom62

Maybe we should listen to the experts instead.

Food for thoughts....
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein