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Are We Fucked, Climate Wise?

Started by The Magic Pudding.., November 15, 2023, 12:23:27 PM

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The Magic Pudding..

Are We Fucked, Climate Wise?

China and India say they'll get to zero but it won't be for a considerable while.
We've got more people, per capita people people considerations must be considered.
You would deny us the chance to modernise.
If you suffer from cosmic vertigo, don't look.

Tank

Yes and no. Humanity will be mostly fucked as the food chains we rely on collapse. Some of the smarter ones may survive as we can modify our environment, live in almost any environment and eat almost anything. We are the ultimate generalists and we are adaptable. So if we survive it'll be in a very different world.
 
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

billy rubin

nothin g will change until we have a giant wake-up disaster.

i putmy money on the collapse of the thwaites glacier raising sea level two feet, and maybe 9 more after that if tributary glaciers go as well.

when that happens people will finally take it seriously, but the world will be different.


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Tank

Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2023, 05:05:27 PMnothin g will change until we have a giant wake-up disaster.

i putmy money on the collapse of the thwaites glacier raising sea level two feet, and maybe 9 more after that if tributary glaciers go as well.

when that happens people will finally take it seriously, but the world will be different.

Yep.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

The Magic Pudding..

Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2023, 05:05:27 PMnothin g will change until we have a giant wake-up disaster.

i putmy money on the collapse of the thwaites glacier raising sea level two feet, and maybe 9 more after that if tributary glaciers go as well.

when that happens people will finally take it seriously, but the world will be different.

So there will be a mood for change when it is too late for change.

They might get some debating points with the "it's all the west's fault, we're just catching up" argument.
I don't think famine or death listen to rhetoric, conquest and war might I suppose.
If you suffer from cosmic vertigo, don't look.

billy rubin

id like it to be different, and im as much a part of the problem as anybody else


"I cannot understand the popularity of that kind of music, which is based on repetition. In a civilized society, things don't need to be said more than three times."

Asmodean

#6
Fucked..? Depends, on the "we," I guess.

A few things to consider;

With one side of "our" mouths we want to combat poverty. A noble enough cause, to be sure, but here's the rub; when people in, say, Uganda, have access to stable food and water supplies, will "we" then ask them to refrain from taking the next step and getting stable electricity? Or taking a plane to that far-away vacation spot? Or buying a car? Or generally consuming to reflect their new-found betterment in the wallet thickness?

There are some possible stopgap measures, such as seeding the atmosphere with "reflective" substances. (Reference: the global warming slowdown in mid-20th century) Granted, in low atmosphere, those can and will cause acid rain and be rather on the short-lived side besides, but if dispersed higher, they will persist longer and spread enough not to cause localised acid-related disasters. The idea of climate control is not politically correct, however, and so "no-one" is talking about ways of making, say, airplanes seed the atmosphere when at cruise altitude. (May not be quite that simple - just illustrating the principle) On the other hand, "a lot" of people are talking about ways of getting rid of the very tool which may potentially be helpful.

Fusion energy is about as green as we can get, with the possible exception of hydroelectric if one disregards habitat destruction. However, because Chernobyl :haironfire: and Fukushima :rant: and such like, mass-opinion leads to places like Germany trying to get rid of that too. Well, Chernobyl area today is, discounting an ongoing war, probably the "greenest" area in Ukraine. Something to think about when debating the following.

My questions then are;
- Beyond pure signalling of own virtue, whether 'you' have it or not, what precisely are 'your' end-goals?
- What is the hierarchy of priorities when said end-goals end up being mutually-incompatible? (I very deliberately did not say "if.")

I think "we" might be able to move the debate along towards doing if those engaged in it, especially at political level, come up with some honest answers.

So, are "we" fucked? I'd say (and this applies only to this specific context since the more general answer is "yes, totally") no more than we fuck ourselves - or let ourselves be fucked.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tank

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 15, 2023, 09:28:31 PM
Quote from: billy rubin on November 15, 2023, 05:05:27 PMnothin g will change until we have a giant wake-up disaster.

i putmy money on the collapse of the thwaites glacier raising sea level two feet, and maybe 9 more after that if tributary glaciers go as well.

when that happens people will finally take it seriously, but the world will be different.

So there will be a mood for change when it is too late for change.

They might get some debating points with the "it's all the west's fault, we're just catching up" argument.
I don't think famine or death listen to rhetoric, conquest and war might I suppose.

Quite possibly.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2023, 09:55:37 AMQuite possibly.
Realistically, I think if the changes are dramatic enough for that, then what will happen is a massive crisis in the insurance business. followed by a period of relocation and restabilisation, followed by business as the-new-usual.

As an aside, I find it interesting to speculate as to what could come after the next mass extinction. I suppose it depends a lot on both its duration and scale, but what ages would follow "the age of mammals?" Could tardigrades, for example, if given enough generations, solve quantum gravity and wormhole physics, lay waste to the xeno scum and the mutant filth alike, and claim the galaxy for the Holy Emperor?

...Disregarding the Warhammer 40k reference, that's one interesting veil of ignorance right there. :smilenod:
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tom62

Scientists don't seem to agree on that one. Yes, there is climate change but no, I don't think that there is a climate crisis. In any case if we here in Germany follow the climate plans of the current government than we'll waste 300 billion for nothing, because we'll reduce the German emission by only 1.4% around 2030, which is a world wide emission saving of 0.00000004%. Maybe the question we should ask is who profits from this climate scare? In any case the wars in Ukraine and Gaza makes all efforts to reduce CO2 emissions laughable. Not to mention all those 80,000+ politicians and their staff members visiting the latest climate conference.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Asmodean

Yeah, the politicians love talking with as many sides of their mouths as they can think of, since each tends to get them a vote here and there. Mutual exclusivity, plausibility or even majority support for each of them? That's for after the elections.

Add to that the principle of perception in stead of action and you get the kind of, to quote Jeremy Clarkson, "ambitious, but rubbish," that the higher-national and international climate debate is.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tom62

In the Netherlands, the government tried to expropriate land from farmers under the pretext of climate change. Had really nothing to do with climate change, but more about getting cheap land for building new houses. The farmers and the Dutch population didn't react positive about these "climate change" plans. This was one of the reasons why the Dutch voted "en masse" for Geert Wilders, the popular right leader.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Asmodean

I can see why they would, and what's more, the "core" climate cause, whether one agrees with it or not, will suffer for having been thusly used, I think.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.