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George Floyd

Started by Magdalena, May 31, 2020, 02:20:45 AM

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billy rubin

in america, theyve had fifty years since the murder of martin lurher king to demonstrate tbeir good will.

it hasnt happened. tbe reality is that tbere are cops that commit crimes, and cops that look the other way.

thoze are tbe only kind there are.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Icarus

Quote from: billy rubin on June 01, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
in america, theyve had fifty years since the murder of martin lurher king to demonstrate tbeir good will.

it hasnt happened. tbe reality is that tbere are cops that commit crimes, and cops that look the other way.

thoze are tbe only kind there are.


Billy that is bullshit.   To say that that is "the only kind there are" is beneath both of our dignities and too far beneath our sense of honesty.

I agree that Buford the hillbilly county cop is a piece of shit. The fool that killed George Floyd was  not a prime example of a legitimate law enforcement officer.     

Right now cops are taking a bad rap because they are pressed into a  serious situations not of their own making.  In the vast majority of cases, cops are guardians. In the last few days they have been forced to become warriors. Damned few of them signed up for this kind of duty. 

Disclaimer: No one in my family is now or ever has been a cop.  None of my friends are cops, nor do they have any cops in their families.

If I have an intruder who is trying to get into my house, planning to harm me, would you suggest that I call a plumber?

Asmodean

A force as large as the sum total of the US police forces, combined with a profession which, it is reasonable to assume, attracts people who desire power over others... Yeah. I'm not surprised that some of them murder people. (From what I understand, the officer in question has not been convicted of murder, so please do look at what I say from the point of presumption of innocence - I'm not saying that he specifically murdered a person at this time)

I don't have a revolutionary bone in my body, so I am incapable of understanding what would drive an person to riot - when my peaceful protests do not succeed, for whatever reason, I go home and re-evaluate my options, but that's neither here nor there. Without referring to specific cases, what I find puzzling is this; I see some news about rioting and looting and some rioters and looters getting shot for their trouble and some people getting outraged and demanding that the defenders be prosecuted. If you attack somebody or are in process of damaging their property, and you get your ass killed for your trouble, that's kind-of on you though, is it not?

...Apologies for adding to the politicization of your thread, Mags.



Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

billy rubin

Quote from: Icarus on June 02, 2020, 07:18:42 AM
Billy that is bullshit.   To say that that is "the only kind there are" is beneath both of our dignities and too far beneath our sense of honesty.

sorry, but i disagree, icarus. if the american police forces were capable of policing themselves, we wouldn't see the systemic abuses that we do. the fact that police in my country can illegally assault peaceful protesters without instantly being outed by a law-abiding cop standing next to them indicates that the the cop next to them is not law-abiding.

its not what they say that matters. its what they do that shows what they are.

Quote
If I have an intruder who is trying to get into my house, planning to harm me, would you suggest that I call a plumber?

if i were black, living in america, and there was an intruder trying to get in, i would not call the police. the risks of calling the cops are as great as fending off the intruder myself. i would have been prepared and i would defend myself to the best of my ability instead.

here's what happened to Stephon Clark in his grandmother's back yard when someone called the sacramento police:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/22/us/sacramento-police-shooting/index.html

here's what happened to Atatiana Jefferson in her own living room when someone called the fort worth police:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/fort-worth-texas-shooting-jefferson.html

the store owner who called the police in minneapolis that resulted in the death of george floyd says he won't be calling the police anymore:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500566-owner-of-store-that-called-cops-on-george-floyd-says-theyll-stop-calling

if i were black i would no more call the police to a problem in my neighborhood than i would have called hitler's brown shirts if i were a jew in trouble.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Magdalena

Quote from: Asmodean on June 02, 2020, 08:31:26 AM
...
...Apologies for adding to the politicization of your thread, Mags.
This is not my thread, Asmodean.

I started this topic:
What's on my mind?
George Floyd.
Minneapolis.
:felix:
https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg402210#msg402210


billy rubin started this one:
Quote from: billy rubin on May 31, 2020, 04:26:37 AM
the police murdered a man and now are inciting riots nationwide.

what do you do when the cops are the criminalz?

Tank put both of them together. I asked him to separate them for me to avoid mixing things. George Floyd didn't do anything wrong, but the police department all over the United States, now that's another topic that deserves its own space.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Tom62

Following the rioting and looting from the death of George Floyd, Apple has a message for those who power on a stolen iPhone: "This device has been disabled and is being tracked. Local authorities will be alerted." Forbes reports
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

chauvin, the cop who killed george floyd, was originally the only one charged, third degree murder and second degree manslaughter, i believe:

Third-degree murder is defined as killing someone unintentionally and not done as part of the commitment of another felony. Another term for murder is "homicide." Third-degree murders are those committed with ill will, or, in other words, with malice.


that seemed inappropriate to me, viewng the video. today it was upped to second degree murder, which i think is the correct charge:

Second degree murder is generally defined as intentional murder that lacks premeditation, is intended to only cause bodily harm, and demonstrates an extreme indifference to human life. The exact legal definition of this crime will vary by jurisdiction.


the three cops who actively helped him or failed to interfere have been charged with aiding and abetting the murder. we'll see how this continues.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Anne D.

Quote from: billy rubin on June 02, 2020, 03:01:17 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 02, 2020, 07:18:42 AM
Billy that is bullshit.   To say that that is "the only kind there are" is beneath both of our dignities and too far beneath our sense of honesty.

sorry, but i disagree, icarus. if the american police forces were capable of policing themselves, we wouldn't see the systemic abuses that we do. the fact that police in my country can illegally assault peaceful protesters without instantly being outed by a law-abiding cop standing next to them indicates that the the cop next to them is not law-abiding.

its not what they say that matters. its what they do that shows what they are.

Quote
If I have an intruder who is trying to get into my house, planning to harm me, would you suggest that I call a plumber?

if i were black, living in america, and there was an intruder trying to get in, i would not call the police. the risks of calling the cops are as great as fending off the intruder myself. i would have been prepared and i would defend myself to the best of my ability instead.

here's what happened to Stephon Clark in his grandmother's back yard when someone called the sacramento police:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/22/us/sacramento-police-shooting/index.html

here's what happened to Atatiana Jefferson in her own living room when someone called the fort worth police:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/us/fort-worth-texas-shooting-jefferson.html

the store owner who called the police in minneapolis that resulted in the death of george floyd says he won't be calling the police anymore:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500566-owner-of-store-that-called-cops-on-george-floyd-says-theyll-stop-calling

if i were black i would no more call the police to a problem in my neighborhood than i would have called hitler's brown shirts if i were a jew in trouble.

Amen.

Icarus

Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74

Asmodean

#24
So just to brighten this up a little bit;

Our local Communists and Socialists are planning some sort of protest-gathering-whatever what with the whole Floyd-situation. Yeah. They are the ones to talk! :lol: I mean, abuse of power by law enforcement is to Socialism as honey is to bees. It's what they do.

EDIT: Watched the above vid. She makes my point in this case for about half a minute from ca 3:30. that said, she mentions the "huwhite community." In most of Europe, "white" is not an identity. It may be different over in States, but from my limited knowledge, there is no "white community" there either - with one possible exception being white nationalists and their ilk. (That is to say, does a huwhite games journalist from New York share a level of identity below that, which stems from common nationality with a huwhite shrimp boat crewman from Louisiana?) Is that an fair assessment?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Davin

Quote from: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
So here is an example of many bad faith tactics.

First is the common straw man tactic, used a few times. Several times to to say that "everyone" is saying that he was a saint or a hero. That's very dishonest of her and is the same dishonest tactic the white supremacists use every time.

Another common dishonest tactic is to attack the character of the victim. Something that doesn't matter in this kind of situation, for obvious reasons.

Another common dishonest tactic used is to bring up bad statistics and to misuse them to support their preconceived notions and to twist the narrative.

Very cringy video.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Magdalena

Quote from: Davin on June 05, 2020, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
So here is an example of many bad faith tactics.

First is the common straw man tactic, used a few times. Several times to say that "everyone" is saying that he was a saint or a hero. That's very dishonest of her and is the same dishonest tactic the white supremacists use every time.

Another common dishonest tactic is to attack the character of the victim. Something that doesn't matter in this kind of situation, for obvious reasons.

Another common dishonest tactic used is to bring up bad statistics and to misuse them to support their preconceived notions and to twist the narrative.

Very cringy video.
It is very cringy.
It doesn't surprise me that Icarus posted it.

"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Tom62

Quote from: Icarus on June 05, 2020, 03:04:28 AM
Check this out.  Here is Candace Owens a hard shell conservative I would suspect. She does make some sense, is articulate, and has a different slant  Video is a bit long but may capture some interest...........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74

I've watched the video as well. The criminal background of Floyd is irrelevant. He was an unarmed man who was murdered by a bad cop. Three other cops were standing around, doing nothing to stop the murder. I haven't heard a single person say that was justified (maybe the KKK and other white supremacist groups excluded) . Even Trump found it horrible. I do however agree with Owens that Floyd isn't a hero, but he is certainly a victim of police brutality. Was the murder racial motivated? I don't know since I haven't heard anything about the murder's motives yet. The murder knew George Floyd personally, so it could be possible that there were other motives.

Regarding statistics, never trust any statistics that you didn't create yourself.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Davin

Quote from: Tom62 on June 05, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
Regarding statistics, never trust any statistics that you didn't create yourself.
Or at least review the data that statistics came from.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

Quote from: Magdalena on June 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
"Of all the injuries inflicted by racism on people of color, the most corrosive is the wound within, the internalized racism that leads some victims, at an unspeakable cost to their own sense of self, to embrace the values of their oppressors."

--H. JACK GEIGER, CIVIL RIGHTS WORKER.
There is a long history of people siding with their oppressors and even fighting for them. With the Women's Suffrage movement there women speaking out against a woman's right to vote.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.