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Spirituality:

Started by Rift Zone, April 28, 2019, 12:55:09 AM

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Rift Zone

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 01, 2019, 08:08:41 AM
:fingertap: So...if it's science what's your methodology for obtaining these 'observations'?

What controls are in place to control for your own observational biases? This is important.
You would know if you read it. 

It aslo explains your antics here!   All of you.   This isn't a rational discussion.  Youre not trying to determine if anything presented is actually legit.   You have absolutely no interest in evaluating the model presented against physical reality.    Nope, your subconscious mind saw something it didnt like and now it's fighting it with any bullshit it can conjure.    You bear the EXACT SAME ANTICS as religion does.    You only pretend to be more interested in science.   You are so full of it.   -this dynamic is explained in the religion part of the document, by the way.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:19:01 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 01, 2019, 08:08:41 AM
:fingertap: So...if it's science what's your methodology for obtaining these 'observations'?

What controls are in place to control for your own observational biases? This is important.
You would know if you read it. 

It aslo explains your antics here!   All of you.   This isn't a rational discussion.  Youre not trying to determine if anything presented is actually legit.   You have absolutely no interest in evaluating the model presented against physical reality.    Nope, your subconscious mind saw something it didnt like and now it's fighting it with any bullshit it can conjure.    You bear the EXACT SAME ANTICS as religion does.    You only pretend to be more interested in science.   You are so full of it.   -this dynamic is explained in the religion part of the document, by the way.

Oh please. How can my subconscious have fought against something that didn't even seem interesting enough to read?  ::)

Nope, I am very interested in cognitive neuroscience, despite what you say in your tantrums. So interested in fact, I don't like to see it butchered by someone pulling 'observations' out of their ass as they please.

But fine, I will read it later. Definitely not at 4:30 in the morning. Then we'll see.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Rift Zone

🤦🏻‍♂️
You should probably stick to ignorance is bliss. 
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Tank

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
🤦🏻‍♂️
You should probably stick to ignorance is bliss.

I thought you'd left?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
🤦🏻‍♂️
You should probably stick to ignorance is bliss.

Speak for yourself. I'll give you some knowledge, but I doubt it will give you the power you seek with your temper tantrums.

Now, let's see if you've managed to add falsifiability to your scientific observations as well...

Seriously man, you should really learn to deal with frustration. There's a lot of that in psychological sciences.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Rift Zone

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 01, 2019, 12:57:37 PM
Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
🤦🏻‍♂️
You should probably stick to ignorance is bliss.

Speak for yourself. I'll give you some knowledge, but I doubt it will give you the power you seek with your temper tantrums.

Now, let's see if you've managed to add falsifiability to your scientific observations as well...

Seriously man, you should really learn to deal with frustration. There's a lot of that in psychological sciences.
Let me tell you about tantrum: it looks a whole lot like what mr. demonstrated to be far beneath me did.   -arbitrarily got his wittle feewings in a bunch leading him make dihonorable moves that no one could justify or legitimately support.   He did it cuz he's human.  I get it: i do understand, all too well.  But maintaining that position is the mark of an insolvent child.  You have zero integrity Tank; you embarrass our spiecies.

You are little better.   You too lack the honor and integrity necessary to evaluate the work.  You just jumping on the low class bandwagon to protect your community.   Do you honestly think your insipid psychological ploy has any game with me?   Smh.   Really should have read the document, then you would know how expert i am in that realm and perhaps even get the sense i have the strongest and most secure sense of being on this planet.  -being a literal Giant has its benefits.   You, however, have nothing at all with that crap, particularly considering how all i did was offer a perspective, that is too far from your simple selves to process, so you mistreat it and me in amy manner you can muster.   Real cute of you all.   Way to utilize all thise advanced functions humans pride themselves on (only to make a mockery of them later, but whatever).   Thanks Recusant for giving the content a reasonable chance.
In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival.   -Carl Sagan

Tank

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 02:49:44 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 01, 2019, 12:57:37 PM
Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
🤦🏻‍♂️
You should probably stick to ignorance is bliss.

Speak for yourself. I'll give you some knowledge, but I doubt it will give you the power you seek with your temper tantrums.

Now, let's see if you've managed to add falsifiability to your scientific observations as well...

Seriously man, you should really learn to deal with frustration. There's a lot of that in psychological sciences.
Let me tell you about tantrum: it looks a whole lot like what mr. demonstrated to be far beneath me did.   -arbitrarily got his wittle feewings in a bunch leading him make dihonorable moves that no one could justify or legitimately support.   He did it cuz he's human.  I get it: i do understand, all too well.  But maintaining that position is the mark of an insolvent child.  You have zero integrity Tank; you embarrass our spiecies.

You are little better.   You too lack the honor and integrity necessary to evaluate the work.  You just jumping on the low class bandwagon to protect your community.   Do you honestly think your insipid psychological ploy has any game with me?   Smh.   Really should have read the document, then you would know how expert i am in that realm and perhaps even get the sense i have the strongest and most secure sense of being on this planet.  -being a literal Giant has its benefits.   You, however, have nothing at all with that crap, particularly considering how all i did was offer a perspective, that is too far from your simple selves to process, so you mistreat it and me in amy manner you can muster.   Real cute of you all.   Way to utilize all thise advanced functions humans pride themselves on (only to make a mockery of them later, but whatever).   Thanks Recusant for giving the content a reasonable chance.

Retained to prevent revision.

Your account has been suspended pending staff discussion. You have not been banned.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 02:49:44 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 01, 2019, 12:57:37 PM
Quote from: Rift Zone on May 01, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
🤦🏻‍♂️
You should probably stick to ignorance is bliss.

Speak for yourself. I'll give you some knowledge, but I doubt it will give you the power you seek with your temper tantrums.

Now, let's see if you've managed to add falsifiability to your scientific observations as well...

Seriously man, you should really learn to deal with frustration. There's a lot of that in psychological sciences.
Let me tell you about tantrum: it looks a whole lot like what mr. demonstrated to be far beneath me did.   -arbitrarily got his wittle feewings in a bunch leading him make dihonorable moves that no one could justify or legitimately support.   He did it cuz he's human.  I get it: i do understand, all too well.  But maintaining that position is the mark of an insolvent child.  You have zero integrity Tank; you embarrass our spiecies.

You are little better.   You too lack the honor and integrity necessary to evaluate the work.  You just jumping on the low class bandwagon to protect your community.   Do you honestly think your insipid psychological ploy has any game with me?   Smh.   Really should have read the document, then you would know how expert i am in that realm and perhaps even get the sense i have the strongest and most secure sense of being on this planet.  -being a literal Giant has its benefits.   You, however, have nothing at all with that crap, particularly considering how all i did was offer a perspective, that is too far from your simple selves to process, so you mistreat it and me in amy manner you can muster.   Real cute of you all.   Way to utilize all thise advanced functions humans pride themselves on (only to make a mockery of them later, but whatever).   Thanks Recusant for giving the content a reasonable chance.

:reading:

Hold my coffee.

:bigspecs:

Temper tantrums...check
Delusions of grandeur...check
Narcissism...check (in spades)

Seriously man, what is wrong with you?

I'm going to read the wall of text now, even though...meh.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Rift Zone on April 28, 2019, 12:55:09 AM
This perspective is contrary to what humanity has been teaching for millennia. This is a bold assertion. Says who? You? How do you know yours is truly and original idea? Have you done the research?   It is a rather unique perspective that forges a lot of new ground.    This could rightly be described as a 'big picture' type of perspective.   Stephen Hawking once wrote, "If everything in the universe depends upon everything else in a fundamental way, it might be impossible to get close to a full solution by investigating parts of the problem in isolation."  We face that problem here; investigating the parts in isolation may not necessarily lead us directly and definitively to the big picture presented.   However, there's also an implicit solution in Hawking's words: take a step back and scrutinize the intricacies and nuances of the system as a whole, utilizing the parts in isolation to inform and give context to the nature of the "full solution". So you're telling me you've got every variable covered? Takes a LOT of knowledge of the parts to even see the system as a whole. When there are too many variables we get lost in them.  In physics, the value of both approaches should not be underestimated; being roughly a "bottom->up", as well "top->down approach.   We initially discovered antimatter within an equation: bottom->up; and Relativity was established through understanding applied to equations: top->down.    Both are invaluable.   When put together, if the perspective is viable, then we should see perfect agreement between the system in question, the perspective meant to make the system comprehensible, as well as consistency within the parts in isolation: how they add up/contribute to the system as a whole.   This perspective fulfills the requirements of 'viable'.   Given an honest and sincere assessment, this perspective is perfectly representative of our world and how it operates.

Seeing the 'big picture' is perhaps the easy part.  There may be greater difficulties we may have involving gaining some appreciation for this work.  To some extent, with a bit of poetic license, it's fair to say you're likely to be 'programmed' to reject it.  A lot of poetic license...you throw all sorts of people, with different motivations and beliefs, into one bag and say they're likely to reject your ideas...why? It doesn't make sense. The explanation supporting such an odd statement is contained within.   The reason why, without explanation, is spirituality is a fundamental human trait: everyone has it, everyone.  Spirituality originates within our subconscious minds, seeks answers in the real world processed through our more recent advanced conscious neocortex 'human' minds, then our answers go straight back to our subconscious limbic more 'primitive' brains.   -a place that has no capacity for language, yet drives behavior, emotionalism, and for the most part, our beings outright. This is a gross simplification. Refer to my "knowledge of the parts" comment above: a) what region of the limbic system do you mean? You think it's all subconscious? I won't ramble on about the limbic system and consciousness here, do your research. ::)   The difficulties we may have revolve around the types of things discussed here are almost certain to conflict with understandings you already have established, understandings you have established pertaining to your identity, in a place that has no capacity for language... Actually, cognitive flexibility is an executive function, which depends more on the "more evolved" frontal lobe, not the limbic system. The limbic system contains structures which act on mostly declarative memory processes, which drive behaviour, among other things. What do you mean when you say "no capacity for language?" Technically, those depend on Wernicke's area and Broca's area, two small regions which are located in the left hemisphere in most people. Other regions are aphasic but there's a lot of cross-talk between regions with these two areas. It follows this work is not going to be able to, nor is it interested in talking anyone out of any conflicting views that may exist.   I'm confident many have already told themselves what's in this paragraph doesn't seem right, doesn't apply to them ...dissent.    There is a modicum of truth in that: the book being outlined here is being written for the next generation.  Can't strip beliefs anyone, and this work doesn't care to try.   Thus, individual's 'truth' is secure; this work doesn't necessarily contest it, and it is fully advocated everyone carry on secure in their understandings, leaving us happy to agree to disagree.  However, those who seek answers pertaining to spirituality and how this world operates will find them here.

It naturally follows, those with any interest in having some concept of what's being presented here are advised to go in with an open mind with the objective of trying to catch a glimpse of the big picture outlined here.   Those who strive for less are likely to be rewarded with confirmation bias as their existent beliefs are certain to take precedence over conflicting information.   The recommended approach would be to seek the big picture, to understand what it looks like.   Once properly aware, we can then rightfully evaluate the merits of the big picture as they relate to our world, our own thoughts/feelings, and everything else.  This conversation rightly starts with understanding the picture.   To be perfectly honest about it, this effort is going to reformat human spirituality.  It is not an exaggeration to be under the impression most everyone's perspective pertaining to spirituality is incomplete and/or holds marginal validity.   It naturally follows: If you want to understand spirituality and the impact it makes upon our lives and world, please go in with an open mind; seek the picture.   Then, we will be properly prepared scrutinize/evaluate/challenge the picture as we see fit.

Also, please forgive me for what I must do...
I'm a life long atheist.  I never believed in any deity.   Sure, I would argue against existence of god(s) at times.  At other times I would criticize religion for attributable deeds of the past and present.   Still, I spent most of my life more or less indifferent to religion itself, giving credit to the community and the worthy directions they do provide.  I never took an exceptionally hard stance against religion...   ...right up until I started asking myself why this world ails, what are we doing wrong?  This world is in terrible shape, why?   The answers I got converged on religion being the culprit, that Abrahamic Religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) was a significant factor pertaining to the questionable state of our world.   It seemed almost nonsensical at first.  Then I realized what spirituality was, and it all started to make sense.

This work takes a hard stance against religion, for very good reasons.   Ultimately, this is not about religion, this is about making the world a better place.   It is my regret religion stands in the way.  I have little interest in diminishing what many hold to be so dear but I have little choice in the matter.   To put a fine point on it, diminishing religion in this fashion is precisely how to save the world.   I'm sorry it has to be this way, but it clearly is that way; the content within makes it very clear.    Again, please seek to understand, then, once properly aware, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for what I must do.

Who are we?  Why are we here?  Where did we come from?  Where are we going?   What's this life all about???   Being curious about the world around us is an innate trait but these questions are taken a lot more seriously than other inquiries.   It could easily be argued we would naturally be even more curious about things that applied to our existence, but even here we can see these core questions have a deeper grasp on humanity than even particularly intriguing information.   Knowledge pertaining to our existence and relation to the universe touches the very core of our beings. It's far more than intellectual musings over awe inspiring and wonderful things found throughout the universe, we can feel it reverberate throughout our beings when we touch upon it.   These core questions are nowhere near simple inquiries, they tap into something incredibly powerful.   We can begin to see just how powerful they are when we look into religion.

Religion has been perhaps the single most significant influence on humanity for millennia.   While this is understandable to some degree, it goes beyond what is readily understandable.   What religion is said to provide humanity individually and collectively can and does drive behavior, yet history is rife with examples where religiously motivated behaviors extend far beyond the scope of the realms it's purported to involve.   There is no question religion has influence beyond the scope of addressing some questions about our existence and offering moralistic frameworks.   The deeper we dig into the impacts religions make the more it becomes apparent religions impact far more than thoughts, feelings, ideas, values, concepts, or mere beliefs have the capacity to impact.   We are not talking about something that can be found directly within the context of those things.   We are left to draw the conclusion it goes beyond thoughts.   It's not a property of thoughts, feelings, ideas, values, concepts, or beliefs we're getting at here, it's a property of humanity we are talking about.   The deeper we look into it the more we consistently find this to be the case: it is something within us that provides the extra elements.   Thus, we have something within us that can drive behavior related to the core questions of humanity that reverberates throughout our beings when we touch upon it.   It's almost self evident; I'm certain virtually every one of us has experienced it at some point.   This phenomenon has apparently been named already: spirituality.

As much as humanly possible, human perspective was removed from consideration while building this understanding of spirituality. When trying understanding spirituality we could easily get lost in the ambiguity of official definitions of it, the profusion of religions and various approaches to addressing it, the depth and breath of individual impressions held by the populace, as well as being subjected to our own impressions.   Humanity certainly has a lot of interesting thoughts concerning spirituality.   Perhaps what's more important than everyone's thoughts on the matter is the context they exist within, what it amounts to, what it's getting at, the ultimate meaning and implications of it, what it tells us about ourselves...   Arguably, the best way approach to the intrinsic nature of spirituality might be to ask humanity what spirituality means to them, but rather than focus on individual answers we should look for the trends that exist within them. While doing so we may see many atheists feel spirituality is purely a religious construct; while this is a pertinent point we'll look into later, for this particular investigation we'll leave their opinions aside.   The opinions that are pertinent at this very moment tend to mean something about relation to deity, relation to universe, relation to family/ancestors, a sense of morality/philosophy, alignment with a greater thing/purpose...  The type of relationship described is often multifaceted and is rather profound, addressing the very nature of their beings, the nature of the universe, the nature of our relationship to universe, as well as how it informs them to live appropriately.  It's about why we're here!   It's about what this thing called life is about/for...   It tends to be about our role in existence.   When refined even more, the nuances of spirituality converge on it being a trait that serves to provide existence with context, meaning, and direction.   Simply put, spirituality is about our origin and relation to universe.   It's not so simple though, humanity's relationship with spirituality is not a casual one.  We don't just want to understand it, we want to live through it.   We aspire to be expressions of it.   We identify ourselves through it.   All things considered, it's fair to define spirituality as being the predisposition to understand and identify oneself with their origin and relation to the universe.    Whereas the "identify" aspect includes compulsion to be expressions of whatever we find there.  Semantics will always come into play when considering definitions, thus it is conceivable more favorable lines could be drawn at some point.   None the less, the definition presented seems to be a decent representation of the convergence we find; it's good enough to work with.

In spirit of an investigation that is more concerned with what the universe says than what humans think/say, we going to rely on the above definition alone, to exclusion of other definitions/connotation that may exist elsewhere.   For instance, widespread connotations of spirituality often include an immaterial or incorporeal nature: Cartesian Dualism, or similar supernatural quality that is purported to exist beyond the realm of the physics of our universe.  No variation of Cartesian dualism qualifies as directly related to spirituality irrespective of if it legitimately manifests in our universe.   Humanity's answers pertaining to spirituality converged on spirituality is innate desire to seek and incorporate answers pertaining to our beings, into our beings.   While dualism was present in some of the answers, the answers themselves fall under a different category; the answers do not amount to subconscious directive, they are something else.  Isolated answers/tenets we gain from "spiritual" investigation are "spiritual", for lack of a better term. "Spiritual" taken exclusively to mean "of or pertaining to spirituality", as defined above.  If the answers are part of a bigger structure meant to fulfill some of the requirements spirituality places upon us, then they can be construed as part of a spiritual path.   "Spiritual path" being described as any construct meant to fulfill the requirements placed upon us by spirituality.   As you may have guessed, religion is the most common example of a spiritual path.   The 'Way of the Cosmos', presented later is likewise another example of a spiritual path.

This work is being established for the next generation.   More accurately, it is being written for all spiritual beings who seek answers.   To be sure, humans in general are spiritual beings who are compelled to seek such answers.   Religious adherents are an obvious example but atheists and agnostics are no different. Everyone is compelled to look into the universe in an attempt give context, meaning, and direction to existence.   ...to find themselves.   Everyone!!!   Whether or not deity is a facet of their belief structure is quite irrelevant, belief structure is sought and formed by everyone.   Most people already have answers they're satisfied with however, and belief structure cannot be stripped from anyone.   Take atheists for instance, most atheists feel spirituality is a religious construct that doesn't apply to them in any way, shape, or form; and it's not exactly open for discussion.   Their understanding of universe invalidates spirituality and it is likely to remain invalidated even if they do find compelling arguments to the contrary.   In truth, nothing can be said to dislodge that impression from them if they're not interested in personally challenging it.   We see the same dynamic in religious believers too: nothing can be said that would strip belief structure from them either.   There is potential to gain consensus with those who already have an established belief structure but it amounts to someone reformatting their understanding of self and how they fit into the universe.   That can only be achieved when one openly and willingly questions their own nature, otherwise there is no access to it.   This work treats that dynamic with understanding and acceptance; the intent is not to strip belief structure from anyone, only to enable understanding of spirituality, and help spiritual seekers make more informed choices.

The reasons why belief structure cannot be stripped from anyone are largely biological in nature. Spirituality is clearly a subconscious phenomenon. This does not make much sense. If it was subconsious then nobody would be aware of "spiritual" feelings.  That predisposition does not originate in consciousness. See previous comment. Many antics of religion/the religious cannot be be resolved to conscious thought.    The sensations that reverberate throughout our beings while touching upon spiritually relevant things most certainly does not originate in consciousness.    Naturally, we are left with subconsciousness; spirituality originates within subconsciousness.   It begs the question: what the fuck is it doing there?   Why do we have this trait identified as spirituality originating within our subconsciousness?You just keep saying that but do not provide a shred of evidence that spirituality originates in the subconscious. I will trudge on and hope you do later.

It's my turn to get lunch. I will continue reading later.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

Ok, let me get some more of that adenosine receptor antagonist.  :reading:

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

QuoteThere is a reason why our consciousness treats spiritually relevant topics differently, why such things have the capacity to reverberate throughout our beings...  To summarize a somewhat involved argument, the reason why is because those spiritually relevant understandings get embedded into our subconscious minds, into our more primitive limbic brains. Again, your premise is flawed. And WAY too simple. You're just saying that "spiritually relevant understandings get embedded into our subconscious minds". What do you mean exactly? I know what those words mean but they don't make sense when you put them together. How do you separate spirituality from just emotionally charged (limbic system) conscious thoughts triggered by existential questions? As far as I know, no other animal that has a limbic system ponders existential questions, other than humans.   The neocortex part of the brain is the pride of humanity.   Our upper and frontal lobes are responsible for many of our most treasured traits: advanced, abstract, rational, analytical thought, planning, language, and so much more that makes us what we are.   Deeper within are the limbic regions of the brain, which are responsible for our feelings, behavior Wut, you think only the limbic system is responsible for behaviour?, and decision making Again, you think decisions are made in the limbic system? There's a lot of the frontal lobe modulating that there...among other things.   Our belief structures get embedded into our limbic brains...  Well obviously there's a lot of emotional content there, but people rationalise their belief structures too. Other brain regions besides the limbic system participate. And now things get really interesting because we are forced to contend with spirituality is not a merely a metal exercise we go through to appease curiosities of ambiguous origins, it is more of a directive that comes from subconsciousness to inform subconsciousness.  Wut.  Informing subconsciousness can seem a bit curious at first. Let's see what you've got.  However, let's remind ourselves that subconsciousness is responsible for our behavior, feelings, loyalty, decision making, and other things!  See red comment above. Also, of course that's exactly how we're going to utilize that information, it's why we seek it.   To mostly neglect another somewhat involved argument, we arrive at: our subconscious minds utilize the answers we gain from spirituality to serve as foundation from which we largely derive our identities, philosophies, moralities, approach to existence, ways of being, world views...  Wut. The answers we gain from spirituality, our belief structures, are effectively what we build ourselves from.   in many ways, we are literal manifestations of what we find within our spiritual investigations.    Spirituality originates within subconsciousness, drives our consciousness to mingle with the universe looking for some understandings, and then those understandings go straight back to subconsciousness to essentially make us what we are.  -it is through that where our beings establish what our beings are, and how to operate accordingly. Now we're getting somewhere! So, again, what's the difference between emotionally-charged conscious thoughts triggered by existential questions and spirituality?

Now that I'm reading it I agree wholeheartedly with what Davin pointed out -- you ramble on about "the big picture" in the beginning yet so far have failed to see the neurological "big picture". You keep going on and on about the limbic system and how supposedly subconscious spiritual feelings reside there, yet you do not take into consideration the rest of the brain, all of which is connected and different regions communicate with each other quite a lot to get mental and behavioural outputs.

More later.   
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

QuoteThe above process is somewhat removed from conscious consideration. You lost me again. How can anybody be consciously aware of spiritual feelings and thoughts when it is somewhat removed from conscious consideration? Some people say consciousness is the brain taking ownership of thoughts and feelings. Your shaky argument thus far is that spirituality is intimately linked with the subconscious brain. So a person's brain doesn't become aware and take ownership of spiritual feelings?  Our conscious minds evaluate the universe for the sake of gaining the most viable information we can, but that is to a large extent more or less the extent of our conscious interaction with spirituality or the spiritual path we take. From there, we simply operate through it.   Following our spiritual paths becomes largely automatic, similar to our urge to form it in the first place. What, like having emotions? Involuntary does not mean subconscious.


This is where our big picture starts coming together. Far from it. Hopefully we've all been following along, having seen spirituality as a fundamental human trait that serves to provide context, meaning, and direction to existence.    Then we saw a bit about how humanity and spirituality interact. Where, exactly?  -Some real deep shit! We derive virtually everything we are through spirituality. Oversimplified statement. How is identity linked to spirituality? To me, 'memory' plays a larger role in giving us our personal identities. Sense of self? That is more complex. Hopefully, in spite of being brief and incomplete at times, the preceding arguments were somewhat compelling on their own accord. Not really. Flawed idea, little knowledge of neural substrates and oversimplified statements.   In this section we will make them all the more compelling. Yay.  To do that, all we need to do is look at how humanity interacts with religion.

Religion is a spiritual path. It is a collection of various answers we ask through spirituality. Hmm...it's also a social phenomenon, power-hungry and controlling. It fulfills the demands spirituality places upon us.   Ultimately, religion is a way to answer all those core questions of humanity.   It provides existence with context, meaning, and direction.   It does precisely what a spiritual path should do.    Now, according to our understanding of spirituality, that path should go straight to subconsciousness, (:fingertap:) to a place that has no language, and drives behaviors, for the express purpose of establishing our identities, thought patterns, and way of being. (:fingertap:) Essentially, those with that path should be living, breathing manifestations of that path.   Consider the religiously devout: they are precisely manifestations of their belief structure.   We don't need anything near this perspective to see the religious have scripture as foundation from which they largely derive their identities, philosophies, moralities, approach to existence, ways of being, world views...   They are manifestation of their beliefs.     As are atheists, agnostics, pagans, and dolphins. Wut.  (-Spirituality is the mark of sentience, by the way; it's not exclusively a human trait. Every creature smart enough will concern themselves with such things.   How various species relate to spirituality is a bit more individualistic, however.) That's a bold statement which requires real, extraordinary scientific evidence.  I am absolutely a manifestation of my belief structure.   It is what guides me, provides me with context, meaning, and direction.

Back to the religious: they are manifestations of their belief. There's another thing you can see in their behaviors too: where their beliefs reside in their being.    Here is another instance where neglecting some argument in favor of brevity will be favored...   Aspects of the argument draw heavily on secular vs religious debate involving religion/deity.   With all due respect, as it known this process is automatic and they have been led astray understandably following the most complete and comprehensible paths available at the time, the devout often have a reputation for all manner intellectual dishonesty, ranging to cognitive dissonance at times.   It's often astounding to the more secular.   However, both sides are essentially operating in the exact same manner!!!   -out of their subconscious minds, the limbic brain, a place that has no capacity for language, yet drives emotionalism, loyalty, behavior, decision making, and other things...  (:fingertap:) The only significant difference between the secular and the devout is the spiritual path they operate from.   The secular have the benefit of aligning closer to what's observed within physical reality, so while the nature of their argument may intrinsically be more rational, what's really going on in them is just as much a part of their non-rational mind as what's going on in the devout.    As for the devout, their argument, speaking from the perspective of the secular, doesn't seem to often bear much rationality at all; as if we should expect it come from a rational place!   -but it doesn't!!!  And we can get into a whole lot of psychology demonstrating how much of what we do and argue comes from subconsciousness only to be rationalized by consciousness. [interpreter module of the brain -Michael Gazzaniga, works by Jonathan Haidt, and tons more]   What we have here is a case of subconsciousness defending its own beliefs, utilizing the tools it has: emotionalism, loyalty, behavior...   it's gonna do what it has to do to protect itself, leaving consciousness to rationalize it as best as it can, as we all do.  -and again, no capacity for language there; no one has access to it with language.  Says who. I see you used a couple of references there, well done! Add at least one more here, plis. Which is why you can't strip beliefs from anyone; they have to be in a place where they're evaluating a path, then paths can change. Oversimplification.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

QuoteNow, according to our understanding of spirituality, spiritual paths should go straight to subconsciousness, for the express purpose of establishing our identities, thought patterns, and way of being.  You can keep saying that, doesn't make it true. :fingertap: ^and that's what we see.  No trait within humanity contests that.  Reference? It is complicated enough such that it will take a complete volume to fully explain (due 9 Nov 2020), I hope it's full of references... however, it is clear what's presented leaves little ambiguity pertaining to validity.   As such, we have a significant portion of our big picture completed!    It's fair to say we understand how humanity operates in this context.    We are now going investigate how the world operates:

Abrahamic Religion: Judaism, Christianity, Islam is destroying our planet.  At times, it is what's recorded within scripture that is to blame.   At other times, it's the underlying teachings of religion that may not necessarily be declared but are none the less integrally embedded within the spiritual path that does damage to humanity and our home.   Religion amounts to psychological warfare; it has taken the most beautiful aspect of humanity and turned it against us, for the sake of subjugating every conceivable thing that could bring wealth to global "leaders". I'm not a fan of religion, but if it was only that it wouldn't have survived and propagated within and between societies.

You live in a place of exile, or something akin to this is not your true home. This existence is often taken as a trial of some sort.   Apparently this world is supposed to be miserable for the benefit of our supposedly immortal souls.  This life is not meant to be the time to experience a realm that abounds with joy, happiness, contentment, or fulfillment. Your most fundamental relationship to the universe is subordinate. These are some of the underlying teachings of religion. Furthermore, religion is the world's foremost authority on teaching racism and hate. The emphasis on group superiorities is so ubiquitous that not even propaganda like "love thy neighbor" eases how those teachings embody themselves in this world. The malicious nature of Abrahamic religion can be seen all around us. Also tragic is the damage we cannot see. Many women develop sexual dysfunctionalities thanks to the teachings of religion; this is well documented in psychology. Not to mention the sexual dysfunctionalities men develop: "dominion" is a common theme in religion. I.S.I.S. raping women as a prayer to their god is an extreme example, but far from the only one.

There is no reason to value religion as a source of morality. For instance, the Christian Bible says a lot of crazy things about code of conduct. Christians do not follow them all because they did not gain their morality from the Bible. They have simply aligned their morality with the Bible, picking and choosing behaviors that suited them best, just like we all do. Any "moral high ground" associated with following the Bible or other Abrahamic scripture is utter nonsense.  The only difference between atheists and believers in that regard is atheists access their morality and sense of humanity directly.  They don't process it through a book of hate.*   It is any wonder atheists are under-represented in prisons? -violent crime? -mental issues?
[*You hear a little about how god loves you. You hear about how you better, damn well, love your god. Most of the bible is pestilence, war, rape, murder... All things considered, it is not a love story about humanity and existence, it's a depressing look into the darkest age of humanity: lots of hate.]

Religion demands your single most intimate relationship with anything is to be with their god.   <--That is a work of art! -It is profoundly evil, but it is none the less a masterpiece. We can find an entire universe of confirmation bias in that nuance.   We can rationalize away responsibility, accountability, decency, and anything else we want to through that.  Books could be written on the implications of this alone.   This alone stifles humanity's progression, not to mention every thing else.  Rather than work things out among ourselves religion teaches us to appeal elsewhere. This is facet of world view is tragic on so many interpersonal and societal levels.  These things and more are crushing to the human psyche. This is exactly how religion desecrates our planet. We deserve better than that. We are better than that.

A thorough psychoanalysis of religion's teachings, explicit or otherwise, reveals religion embodies itself in our world as dis-empowerment on virtually all levels, selling humanity hope for things it has stripped from them.    ...to take up your qualms with your ineffectual imaginary friend if you don't like it/the state of your life/world.

The majority of humans are good, decent people who are likely more inclined to empower their fellow human than bring them down for their own gain. Our concept of "paradise" demands healthy ecosystems. We yearn for peace. We yearn for a healthy relationship with everything around us. That is the character of humanity. That is the world we should be living in. The character of this world is very different. An honest assessment of this world reveals it is a reflection of Abrahamic scripture. Scripture is a look into the darkest age of humanity. It is wrought with war, misery, hardship, slavery, subjugation of all forms, famine, economic brutality, brutality outright, racism, destruction... And we live in that world today because scripture has guided humanity throughout history. Our technology has grown up around us but we still struggle with the same social issues the ancients wrote of simply because religion has kept social development in stasis. I question whether this is true. Western societies as a whole has evolved since the time of the ancients. World view defines our world!!!  -indirectly; it is a circumstance of world view defining our operating parameters; operating through those parameters either enables or directly manifests the essence of our teachings into our world.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


jumbojak

Guys, guys... *makes calming motion with both hands* the problem is we're just not woke enough yet. Well, that and some participants in this exchange are jackasses. Not pointing any fingers though. Except to point at myself. It takes one to know one and I can spot a jackass like I have eagle eyes...

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

xSilverPhinx

QuoteThe only sincere value religion brings to humanity is the community that grows out of it.   Correction: religion brings absolutely no benefit to humanity.   Again, I doubt religions would have survived if they didn't bring some benefit to humanity. The community that grows there is a function of humanity, of our spirituality as social beings, it is not a function of religion.  Doesn't seem like it has to be one or the other.  The better quality the teachings of any given spiritual path are, the better quality the community that springs from it can be.    Religion bring nothing but harm.   Incorporating Abrahamic teachings into our approach to existence it taints what we are, strips us of much of our intrinsic beauty, and largely reduces the nature of our existence to disaster, subjugation. Abrahamic religion is a variable that is diminishing this planet, humanity itself. Religion is the reason humanity does not realize more of its potential.

Carl Sagan was one of the greatest spiritual leaders who has ever lived; his works are the most spiritually pure works humanity has ever produced.   Much to his credit as a scientist, Carl Sagan was agnostic.   However, irrespective of his certainty over the issue, he operated with what he could find in the universe.   What he found was revealed by science and it effectively leaves his works with a rather pronounced atheistic feel to them.   Scientists often speak of what we know; Sagan spoke of what we are, directly engaging our spirituality every moment of it.   It is precisely why those exposed to his works tend to love him so: they too could begin to relate to the universe on a similar level, a spiritual level.

I find it to be somewhat unlikely this work would exist without Sagan.   Carl Sagan was the first human to have conscious awareness of spirituality.  Bold statement. Prove it. But how could you? Nevermind...   I assert he understood many of the dynamics of spirituality.   I assert he knew that spirituality was quite capable of providing the inspiration to reverse the horrible trends we see in our global social and economic systems.    He knew spirituality could save the world.   It never occurred to me while I was reading his works.    Having traced the problems of the world back to religion, however, inspired echoes of Sagan's works explaining spirituality to me.    I am officially a proud Carl Sagan minion; this work intends to finish something he started.   ...irrespective of if we consciously understand spirituality better than he did.

  Sagan was in love with life, sentience, and the universe that bestowed it upon us.  Life is the most intrinsically valuable substance in the universe. Sentience, our capacity of rich thought, is yet another gift of equal magnitude.   Being technologically capable is yet another.  I sincerely doubt it gets any better than that.   You are a member of the most capable species known to exist, that could conceivable exist, irrespective of how long we've been here or how much of our potential we've fulfilled.   To borrow terminology from religion, we are concentrations of divinity.  Sagan reveled in this truthful relationship with the universe. Our identity is simple and demonstrable.   We have ample science demonstrating life, we, our ancestors, have been on this planet for around 4 billion years. Science does a fantastic job at answering many of our core questions.   However, there does seem to be something missing from it...    Take atheists, for instance, they look into the universe to get a sense of understanding of self...  and mostly see the universe is indifferent to their existence...   and it is an utter tragedy. We are precisely as Sagan described us to be: we are the universe's way to know itself. We are its ability to love, produce art, literature, science...    We are the most intrinsically valuable thing in the universe; of all the cool shit this universe does, you do the coolest shit.   You're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, profoundly capable, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again.

Also derived directly from the universe, humanity, and how they interact: the value of a person is not determined by the gifts they've been given, it's what they do with their gifts that counts.   it's what you leave in your wake.    If where you've been has been graced by your presence because you've left nothing but beauty, wisdom, joy, intrigue, and empowerment behind you then you have a beautiful soul (loosely defined by this paragraph) and your value as a person is uncontested.   Leave misery, fear, pain, destruction, subjugation or any manner of diminished then you reprehensible and beneath the quality of human.    Our value is determined by how we treat everything around us: humanity, other creatures, the ecosystems that sustain us.   To mostly neglect yet another somewhat involved argument, a complete moralistic framework that bears integrity and honor can be derived directly from the properties of humanity, the universe, and we interact. It is a morality that is intrinsically ecocentric.

All the world is a stage...   and while it is fantastic that we can see wonderful things pertaining to humanity's place in the universe, spirituality is a rather personal thing.   We want to know where we fit in to existence.   First of all, our world is not set up for the contentment or longevity of any species, particularly our own (getting into what is decidedly an involved argument; that we'll skip here, of course).   So the answer is not exactly so simple, yet, it is kinda simple: what inspires you? Children more or less tell us everyday what they want to bring to the world.    We have natural musicians, programmers, painters, engineers, writers, craftsmen, and scientists running around all over the place.    The nature of your being is going to tell you who you are, how to best express what you are.   It's already been written in us.    Unfortunately, this world is a messed up place, so seldom do we find good alignment between our beings and lives, but we can change that.    To be sure, we've been low level poisoning our immediate environments and selves, both chemically and psychologically for a long time...  not everything going on within humanity right now is, um, appropriate.   ...but we can change that too.

Shinrin-yoku: 'forest-bathing'...   We are now collecting tons of science (from psychological to medical and certainly beyond) that shows how deep the connection between humanity and nature is. It is astounding.   Shinrin-yoku is the practice of going into natural areas for the express purpose of gaining the medical and psychological benefits shown to come from it.   It is a somewhat new investigation for mainstream science, but how much our physicality benefits from exposure to nature is becoming more established and better understood every day.    Evolution tells us we are directly "bloodline" related to every living thing in nature; that is our family, and look what happens to us when we go home.   That is some deep shit.

What's paradise?    The natural world?    -Effectively, that is exactly what it is!   It is also a feeling, it's a relationship, it's something deep in us that makes paradise.    We may have thought about it and coined the term, but the reason we bond with the concept is not something we consciously did to ourselves!!! This is where I go out on a limb...   I am not able to express this linearly, as is the structure of language; so I will never be able to satisfactorily demonstrate this, but I hold it to be fact none the less:   Life has it's own form energy.  We can pick up on it with our instruments but the way it manifests is nothing physics, chemistry, or quantum mechanics would ever be able to explain in isolation -it is part of a much larger picture than our little world is distinguishable within.    Monks impacting the shape of crystals speaks of its presence.  (:lol:) Plants reacting to our behavior and Mozart are indicative of that presence being known by other, there is a connection between our "energies", us and all life Dubious science, at best.... And we thrive on it.    And we have the capacity to put it virtually everywhere in abundance.   Enough about that tangent, let's return to something we can demonstrate Yay! Finally..


Atheistic spirituality inspires a completely different relationship than what religion teaches, a much more empowering one.   Atheistic spirituality, the Way of the Cosmos, is the purest and most empowering expression of spirituality [spiritual path] possible.

This work holds significance in a number of ways. First of all, we've found spirituality to be a fundamental human trait. It arises within subconsciousness, compels our consciousness to interact with our universe to gain things conventionally considered to be the essence of spirituality outright, then takes those things back to subconsciousness where they are processed as foundation for virtually everything we are. Well, why didn't you say so?! That is a better phrase, but still lacks actual evidence. How do you know this? Did you perform imaging studies and see which areas were activated when prompted? Did you study cases in which lesions or physiological situations in certain areas of the brain resulted in hyperreligiosity? WHAT ARE YOU BASING THIS ASSERTION OF YOURS ON? Intuitive thoughts or "observations" without controlling for variables is not science, in spite of what you think it is. First you would have to find evidence that spirituality is different from other feelings which might give existential thoughts their emotional colour or valence. Second, what would your controls even look like?! You said previously that spirituality is a universal human trait, so basically you've won't have a non-spiritual group to compare with. That is a problem. But ok, you could find pathological cases where and compare hyperreligious people to normal people. What about other brain areas that can come into play? What about parts of the frontal lobe, such as the ventromedial and medial areas? Or the parietal lobe, which, have some overlapping functions with the frontal lobe? Or the temporal lobe, which seems to be important in hyperreligiosity... What about the ability to attribute symbolic meaning to things -- language -- different from communication... how does that factor in? Why focus on the limbic system only? Wouldn't it be the case that even animals that are most likely unconscious also be spiritual because they have a freaking limbic system? Of course, we are talking about far more than what we are individually; we are also indirectly talking about what our world is, how we structure it. The tenets of our belief structures become the tenets of our environment and lives. Every system we build will be informed by them. Our social and economic systems will necessarily be informed by them. It is no coincidence the wealth and power of the global financially elite is remarkably similar to hierarchies found in scripture. Our world suffers because philosophies and approaches found within scripture have embodied themselves into our social and economic systems. Philosophies and approaches that are intrinsically damaging to humanity, our ambitions, and world.

It follows: if we remove sinister teachings and replace them with honorable ones that were inherently ecocentric, we would start to see a world that operates through tenets expressed in the true essence of humanity: the decency that inspires our social species to necessarily empower their fellow human than bring them down for their own gain , our ingrained affinity for paradise" that demands healthy ecosystems. We yearn for peace. We yearn for a healthy relationship with everything around us. That is the world we will be living in when we chose it.

The United States of America rose to a world power because it empowered its populace. The empowered populace, somewhat isolated from struggle, was then enabled to indulge in the breadth and depth of human interest and engagement, on their own terms, producing innovations and enrichment in virtually all areas. America rose to power not because America was great, but because people are great. Enable them to thrive and the wonders that come of it is simply as of yet unimaginable. Yet, we live in a Machiavellian world where subjugation, manipulation, curtailing the human spirit is thought to be the path to power; we are going to show world "leaders" they are wrong about that. It is a simple formula: the most powerful entity is born of the most powerful people. Identifying the most powerful people is easy: they're the ones who thrive, who were empowered, who were enabled to enrich, express, innovate, share of their beings, who grew in an environment our species has known (until recently) since our advent hundreds of thousands of years ago. We are asocial species for a reason: none of us are getting very far alone. Conversely, look at what we can do when we work together! Sure, you can build pyramids with slaves, but a slave would scarcely have the opportunity to develop and express the types of things their being would naturally pursue, things which humans have a rather profound propensity to continually improve upon. Working for "the man" is only marginally better. The vast majority of global "leadership" is squandering the world's most precious resources: human potential and the ecosystems that sustain us. Enabled by a belief structure that more or less directs it that way by incorporating deterioration and its ridiculous justification into its explanation of universe.

Africa is my homeland. It is where my people come from. Sure, I have white skin and blue eyes, but that's only because my tribe hung out under glaciers too long, boning Neanderthals. Meh. All of our tribes and all of our wanderings are such a wonderful legacy to inherit. It makes me proud to be human. Kia ora, brothers, sisters. And to all across the world, who have likewise been marked by their path, I love seeing how it looks on you: the depth and breath of humanity is our most profound beauty and strength.

This truncated outline of spirituality is being expanded into a complete volume that is due to be published on Carl Sagan's birthday, 9 November 2020. As you may imagine, spirituality is a rather complex thing. The dynamics and nuances thereof involve everything. We're going to spell out every word of it. It is to be written by the Way of the Cosmos spiritual community (I vote we keep me as an editor and project manager). In the meantime. At this very moment, this is only a document. However, I fantasize about it being a start: a community, a change... This world has been given to us through the antics of countless business, governance, and religious entities, all vying for more control, as if that's where the true riches lie. In an attempt to incorporate some of the understandings found within this presentation into our world, this dream is now actively perusing incorporating into a 503c non-profit spiritual organization. I have all sorts of wonderful dreams pertaining to how to empower and inspire humanity through the 'Inspires' atheists build to indulge spirituality. It will be fun to see if it gets off the ground well enough to accomplish anything at all. I hope I can share some of those peripheral dreams with you sometime. I hope you will find it worthy and stand with me. I will do everything I can, but we can do such much more if we empower each other as a community, built of our spirituality, built on tenets that inherently empower us and everything around us.

I'm a science geek. I study the physical structure of the universe because I'm in love with the natural world. I ended up qualifying as an expedition-grade adventure-trekker (according to myself), traveling many thousands of miles through all types of natural areas, by various means, in virtually all conditions, under my own power, because I'm in love with the natural world. I only fell deeper in love with Mother Nature (the natural world) while I was immersed within her, which inspired this project, because I'm in love with the natural world. Evidence suggested a way to stop the damage being done to my beloved natural world, so I spent over a decade developing a comprehensive understanding of how to save my first and only true love: Mother Nature, because I'm in love with the natural world. Yeah...You really need an editor... The understanding amounts to humans are the problem this world faces, and we can't change the world under humanity's feet, we must change the way we walk. Furthermore, nature thrives when humanity does. I believe the Way of the Cosmos is how and where to walk if we wish to leave a legacy worthy of our nature. Therefore, I am very pleased to announce my life's work: Way of the Cosmos.
I'm actually engaged in 2 efforts I consider to be life's works. The other is a physics theory named "Nova". I seem to be good with complex systems that interact non-linearly, like physics and dysfunctional human societies. It's about the only thing I'm good at, but I'm good at it, can't complain I guess. I'm not good at being a spiritual leader (I'll find worthy spiritual leaders). I'm kinda rough around the edges. Fair to say those close to me would affirm having honor, integrity, and a good heart. I was never properly domesticated though; I'm somewhat feral. I am a warrior. I came here to break things. I am Mother Nature's little bitch: I am going to fuck up everything that stands to gain from the subjugation/destruction of our world/species. Stand with me and I can promise a better world, and mean it. Wanna know how to save the world? -robin hood the fuck out of it. Probably a bow around here some where. Let's do this, right now. Join me merry (wo)men and/or otherwise, it's time to ride.

I'm certain you're aware of how much crazy shit humanity does for the sake of their spirituality. I'm certain you're aware of how far people go to align themselves with their spirituality. I submit to you spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. Nothing is as powerful because nothing can inspire humanity like spirituality can.

"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan.

This work promises to take those reserves and literally turn saving the world into a spiritual quest for humanity. The qualities of humanity's new relationship with universe will see to it. Humanity has aligned itself with identity crisis rife with questionable, and outright harmful philosophies. It is the reason our world suffers. This work will resolve that crisis as humanity embraces its true identity; and through that, we will build a better world. Spirituality demands we reconcile and align with what we find there. It will soon demand we reconcile with nature and ourselves.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey