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"Why are Americans still uncomfortable with atheism?"

Started by Sandra Craft, October 22, 2018, 11:24:37 PM

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Sandra Craft

A longish article (actually, a review of two books) but an interesting one.  It not only reviews the history of atheism in America, but modern perceptions and misperceptions of atheism.  It's interesting that the books being reviewed, both by and about atheists, are in conflict with each other when atheism is viewed as monolithic by so many. 

Why are Americans still uncomfortable with atheism?

I was also reminded of some discussions we've had here:
QuoteThis kind of apophatic theology has a lot in common with godless mysticism, Gray argues, because saying that God does not exist is not so different from saying that we cannot comprehend God's existence. In both cases, the material world may be characterized by limited understanding and limitless wonder.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Recusant

John Gray has been peddling his atheism spiel for well over a decade (dining out on his sneering depiction of the so-called New Atheists, comparing them unfavorably to other atheists, quasi atheists or religious people that he prefers) and the description of his new book makes it sound like he's still covering basically the same ground. The book by Moore and Kramnick sounds more interesting.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Sandra Craft

Quote from: Recusant on October 23, 2018, 03:44:50 AM
John Gray has been peddling his atheism spiel for well over a decade (dining out on his sneering depiction of the so-called New Atheists, comparing them unfavorably to other atheists, quasi atheists or religious people that he prefers) and the description of his new book makes it sound like he's still covering basically the same ground. The book by Moore and Kramnick sounds more interesting.

Never heard of Gray before, and I'll admit when I saw the name I first thought of that men/Mars, women/Venus guy.  I have to assume this is not him.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Recusant

Years ago I did a transcript of his "New Atheism" lecture--it can be seen here. I'm not sure whether you have to be a member of the site to view it. If so, there's a different transcript from a version of the same lecture from five years earlier: Transcript, John Gray: Theos/LICC lecture on "The New Atheism", 2008. Note that I'm not recommending anybody put the time into reading either one, but if you're really curious. . .

I've posted about Gray's hobby-horse here before but it seems like those posts were lost in the database problems when we transferred to new forum software.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Sandra Craft

Quote from: Recusant on October 23, 2018, 07:00:09 PM
Note that I'm not recommending anybody put the time into reading either one, but if you're really curious. . .


I am.  Should be an interesting addition to the thread.

Edited to add: I notice the one commenter described himself as a "religious atheist".  Would have liked to hear more about that idea, too.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

No one

Sandra Craft:
I notice the one commenter described himself as a "religious atheist"

This chap is clearly confused.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: No one on October 24, 2018, 03:41:52 PM
Sandra Craft:
I notice the one commenter described himself as a "religious atheist"

This chap is clearly confused.

'Religious atheist'. How truly oxymoronic!
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Icarus

Religious Theist term is a puzzlement.  Sounds like the individual is playing both sides of the fence just to be safe. .........Pascals wager or whatever.

SidewalkCynic

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 27, 2018, 04:00:15 PM
Quote from: No one on October 24, 2018, 03:41:52 PM
Sandra Craft:
I notice the one commenter described himself as a "religious atheist"

This chap is clearly confused.

'Religious atheist'. How truly oxymoronic!

The problem is that most atheists are using an incorrect definition of religion.

Chances are you trust the definition that religion is "the belief and worship of god(s)." The problem is that such a definition is a redundant category error that. There is not enough difference between the definitions of "belief," and "worship," to justify the conjunction to distinguish religion from theism. Belief is a form of worship. If a person believes in god, but does nothing else to suggest to the observant atheists that he is worshiping the god, the atheists are still going to describe him as religious - you will never come across atheists suggesting that someone is a theist, but not religious. It gets really silly when we begin to assign relative degrees of religious, and . . . atheism.

I have never run into people uncomfortable with atheism, except atheists.

Atheists have the same problem that all extremist demographic groupings have - they like to claim to be the victims of oppression, and devise all sorts of derivative arguments to support their claim, rather than actually proving their value to progressing better community and society.
If there were a god, then it would have revealed itself to me. There has never been anything more important in the history of Mankind than what I am delivering - scientific collation theory for the organization of technology.

Icarus

SC, If you have never run into people uncomfortable with atheism except atheists, you must surely have been living in a cave in outer Mongolia. 

Atheists are the most reviled of all humanity as far as the very religious ones are concerned..Certain of the religious faiths are obligated to kill us because we are infidels to them. 

As a matter of fact I am not acquainted with any atheist who is uncomfortable with his/her atheism except for the threats of destruction of we unbelievers by the religious zealots. ......

SidewalkCynic

Quote from: Icarus on January 26, 2019, 04:06:22 AM
SC, If you have never run into people uncomfortable with atheism except atheists, you must surely have been living in a cave in outer Mongolia.
Yeah, that's what it is.

Quote from: Icarus on January 26, 2019, 04:06:22 AM
Atheists are the most reviled of all humanity as far as the very religious ones are concerned..
Well, I will bet that there are many black people that would make that claim. Your inability to recognize that possibility indicates a lack of sensitivity to the plight of black people, and that leads me to suspect that you are a racist - white supremacist.

Quote from: Icarus on January 26, 2019, 04:06:22 AMCertain of the religious faiths are obligated to kill us because we are infidels to them.
As a matter of fact I am not acquainted with any atheist who is uncomfortable with his/her atheism except for the threats of destruction of we unbelievers by the religious zealots. ......
Yeah, they are not inclined to admit their irrational fears when in the company of their peers who expect them to be strong and independent critical thinkers leading the charge to make the world a better place by eradicating theism.

Atheists are constantly purging themselves of their discomfort on these atheist forums - you just don't understand it that way.
If there were a god, then it would have revealed itself to me. There has never been anything more important in the history of Mankind than what I am delivering - scientific collation theory for the organization of technology.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: SidewalkCynic on January 26, 2019, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: Icarus on January 26, 2019, 04:06:22 AM
Atheists are the most reviled of all humanity as far as the very religious ones are concerned..
Well, I will bet that there are many black people that would make that claim. Your inability to recognize that possibility indicates a lack of sensitivity to the plight of black people, and that leads me to suspect that you are a racist - white supremacist.

:picard facepalm:

For someone who claims to be smart, you have a very narrow assessment of Icarus based on his words.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


SidewalkCynic

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 26, 2019, 03:37:01 PMFor someone who claims to be smart, you have a very narrow assessment of Icarus based on his words.
He is wrong. He, like most all atheists, are claiming to be persecuted, because they cannot prove that atheism is the better approach to peaceful community and society. Instead of pursuing building a reliable system for the review of reason, atheists, are mirroring the erroneous actions of their perceived oppressors - atheists huddle in their communities (safe places) and bash the theists, and claim to be persecuted and oppressed.
If there were a god, then it would have revealed itself to me. There has never been anything more important in the history of Mankind than what I am delivering - scientific collation theory for the organization of technology.

Tank

Quote from: SidewalkCynic on January 26, 2019, 07:43:25 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 26, 2019, 03:37:01 PMFor someone who claims to be smart, you have a very narrow assessment of Icarus based on his words.
He is wrong. He, like most all atheists, are claiming to be persecuted, because they cannot prove that atheism is the better approach to peaceful community and society. Instead of pursuing building a reliable system for the review of reason, atheists, are mirroring the erroneous actions of their perceived oppressors - atheists huddle in their communities (safe places) and bash the theists, and claim to be persecuted and oppressed.

Never met an atheist who claimed to be persecuted. Not once. Ever.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Bluenose

Quote from: Tank on January 26, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Quote from: SidewalkCynic on January 26, 2019, 07:43:25 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 26, 2019, 03:37:01 PMFor someone who claims to be smart, you have a very narrow assessment of Icarus based on his words.
He is wrong. He, like most all atheists, are claiming to be persecuted, because they cannot prove that atheism is the better approach to peaceful community and society. Instead of pursuing building a reliable system for the review of reason, atheists, are mirroring the erroneous actions of their perceived oppressors - atheists huddle in their communities (safe places) and bash the theists, and claim to be persecuted and oppressed.

Never met an atheist who claimed to be persecuted. Not once. Ever.

Me neither.  Nor have I met any atheists who huddle in their communities bashing theists.  In fact atheists like myself don't think about theists at all until and unless the theists attempt to push their belief onto us.  I'm not sure what exactly SC is trying to get at, but I am not sure I appreciate his arrogantly sneering characterisations of what atheists are and what they do.  SC, you do not speak for all atheists and you are a fool to think that it is even possible to describe them as a group apart from their disbelief in the supernatural.
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett