Makes you think...

[Recusant]

I think we should take a break right now, let's watch cartoons for a while. 
This one never gets old:

I wonder if it would be possible to make an animated "Brief History" that would push Moore's agenda, yet be accurate? Hmm, maybe he didn't care about accuracy. Nah, he was just in a hurry and didn't have time for accuracy. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Magdalena]

Yeah, a lot of these cartoons are done in a hurry.
Here's another one.

[Dave]

Yeah, a lot of these cartoons are done in a hurry.
Here's another one.

Seen that before, but it does not dim its message seeing it again.

Things have not changed, and probably never will until humanity grows up . . . If ever.

[Recusant]

Yeah, a lot of these cartoons are done in a hurry.
Here's another one.

Given that the "This Land is Mine" video doesn't really attempt to do anything more than show the succession of groups that have claimed the area known as Israel and/or Palestine, and the fact that its history (like that of pretty much every other region) includes regular outbreaks of violence, I don't think it's particularly inaccurate.

On the other hand, there were plenty of things I noticed in the Moore video that are outright misrepresentations of history. One early in the thing that doesn't help his agenda and is relatively innocuous in that it merely repeats standard United States mythology: It says that the Pilgrims came to America because they were "afraid of being persecuted." In fact, before they made the decision to come to America they had been living in the Netherlands for some time, where they were entirely free to practice religion as they wanted--they were not really in fear of being persecuted. Their decision to emigrate to America was mostly based on a desire to improve their lot in life, as well as a fear that their descendants would assimilate into the culture of the Netherlands. They also saw an opportunity to convert the Indians to their religion. There was some worry that if the Netherlands went to war with Spain and Spain succeeded in retaking the Netherlands, the Spanish authorities could come down on them, but that was well down on the list, and not an immediate concern. See Wikipedia for more detail.

Moore could have just said that the Pilgrims came to America because they wanted a better life, which would have been much more accurate, and would not have taken any more time to say than what he did say. I chose that statement in his cartoon because I'm not particularly interested in getting into his political agenda, but there are other inaccurate representations that support that agenda.

Maybe I'm just following the fabled ethos of this site with my nitpicking, but I've always had a problem with Moore's willingness to play fast and loose with the truth while he sneers at the hypocrisy and dishonesty of those he opposes. Yes, many or most of them are dishonest hypocrites, but he doesn't do himself any credit when he engages in dishonesty himself. He doesn't really do his cause (some of which I agree with) any credit, either.

[Davin]

Maybe I'm just following the fabled ethos of this site with my nitpicking, but I've always had a problem with Moore's willingness to play fast and loose with the truth while he sneers at the hypocrisy and dishonesty of those he opposes. Yes, many or most of them are dishonest hypocrites, but he doesn't do himself any credit when he engages in dishonesty himself. He doesn't really do his cause (some of which I agree with) any credit, either.

I dislike Moore's methods as well. The "This Land is Mine" video I have less of a problem with because it's following facts while maintaining a theme and asrtistic style to demonstrate a point. But Moore, (well I never watched Bowling for Columbine, so that cartoon annoyed me when I just watched it), seems to be OK with flubbing the facts an cherry picking reality just like hi opponents, and maybe that's the point, but personally I don't like it. There are enough facts that a person doesn't need to misrepresent reality to hold a position for better gun controls. And if there aren't enough facts, then maybe one's position needs to change. But that cartoon moved around historical events to form a narrative, and I really don't like that, especially when it just wasn't necessary.

[Magdalena]

I agree, the video doesn't cover the last 240 years of US history. You can't do that in a video that lasts 3 minutes and 18 seconds. A lot was left out! I think he made it for those people who didn't like history class and didn't learn much about it as they got older. I think it's some type of syllabus to make people talk about certain things he felt, for some reason, were important to him:
The Pilgrims
Native Americans
Salem witch trials
The US Constitution
Black slavery
President Lincoln and the Civil War
The NRA and the KKK
Segregation of blacks and the Civil Rights Movement
I'm I missing anything?
Moore's video reminds me of the song, "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel. It's a song about 100 headline events between 1949, and 1989. I can't remember where I heard it, but a teacher actually used the song as a history class syllabus.—Cool. 

[Dave]

Thinking about songs in America, especially country and western, here are a few titles to ponder. This list is by no means exhaustive. One does wonder . . .

All I Want From You (Is Away)

All My Exes Live In Texas

All the Guys that Turn Me On Turn Me Down

Am I Double Parked by the Curbstone of Your Heart?  (courtesy of Michael)

Double Parked Heart by Jim Pollock (BMI) (Could this be the same song?)

An Old Flame Can't Hold A Candle To You

Are You Drinkin With Me Jesus? (courtesy of Sylvester)

"Does your head pound Jesus as hung over you do rise....how does paradise look Jesus, through holy bloodshot eyes...

Should we take a cab home Jesus...aw man we can hoof it from here...

I know you can walk on the water but can you walk on this much beer?"

Are You on the Top 40 of the Lord? (courtesy of Joel)

At the Gas Station of Love, I Got the Self Service Pump (courtesy of Barry)

Beauty is Only Skin Deep, but Ugly Goes Clean to the Bone (courtesy of Ken)

Billy Broke My Heart at Walgreens and I Cried All the Way to Sears

[Ecurb Noselrub]

When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!

Preach it sister.

Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA.   

I was there in March - I think I saw you.  Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch?  I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

What's controversial about "All my exes live in Texas"?  Catchy song by George Strait.  Just about ex-girlfriends.

[Dave]

What's controversial about "All my exes live in Texas"?  Catchy song by George Strait.  Just about ex-girlfriends.

No pathos due to the fact he only has exes?

[Davin]

I agree, the video doesn't cover the last 240 years of US history. You can't do that in a video that lasts 3 minutes and 18 seconds. A lot was left out! I think he made it for those people who didn't like history class and didn't learn much about it as they got older. I think it's some type of syllabus to make people talk about certain things he felt, for some reason, were important to him:
The Pilgrims
Native Americans
Salem witch trials
The US Constitution
Black slavery
President Lincoln and the Civil War
The NRA and the KKK
Segregation of blacks and the Civil Rights Movement
I'm I missing anything?

I think that if it just listed things like that, then it would have been fine. But the order of events when the narrator "then this other thing" then stretches in some case the reasons behind why people choose those things.

While the shitty treatment Native Americans by the pilgrims was horrible, it didn't start with them, it started with Columbus long before the pilgrims set foot there. But by watching the video, it makes it seem like everything was fine with Native Americans until the Pilgrims showed up. The video says they killed them all, but that removes the other time America acted shitty in its expansion out west. It could have just said, "they killed them" instead of "they killed them all." And then it repeated that it was genocide, leaving no room for "figure of speech" wiggle room.

I honestly don't know all that much about witches in general around the time of the Salem Witch Trials, but I got the impression that it was not a common event. If I trust the cartoon, it looks like it was a widespread thing. I'd have to look it up to find out more, but with all the other things in the cartoon, I think that this too was misrepresented.

The war for independence wasn't just Americans killing the British, as the cartoon made it seem. The over-simplification there made me cringe. They knew that war was the most likely result of declaring independence, but to pare that down to just "then they killed the British for their freedom," is very wrong and I think shows that the cartoon cares more about the point it was trying to make than reality.

There is a whole lot of history that involved a lot of negotiations that when into the US constitution, it wasn't like all Americans nor even the people that signed it were completely happy with it. It took several attempts over many years. The founding fathers knew they needed to solidify a government when they declared their independence, then there was the war, the US (not the name yet, but whatever), barely won, and then they started trying come up with a system of Government. They all compromised into an agreement. To say that any one thing was the result of a single issue is, at least I think, misleading. The first twelve amendments all went in at the same time with much debate, it wasn't like the 2nd one was just added just so that white men could own guns.

Black slavery was another thing that bugged me about the presentation. We know that it happened and that it was extremely bad, but with the "then slavery" thing the video makes it seem like it was next in line in a series of events when it was something that had been going on long before America fought for its independence. But the "then this" makes it look like something that it was not. The truth is bad enough, but they went with a misrepresentation instead.

I also don't think the KKK was formed for any reason close to what the cartoon portrayed. I'm not a fan of straw men, and the real stuff behind the KKK is so much worse than what was presented anyway. It doesn't make sense to straw man the KKK when the real thing would have made a better point anyway.

And then the NRA, it had humble beginnings that I don't think are accurately represented in the cartoon. It's not like the NRA started as a national power house that helps spoon feed weapons manufacturers, but that's exactly what the cartoon implies. It started as something small and for good reasons, to teach people gun safety. Then years later is was warped into the horrible organization it is today, even though most of its members are decent people.

I mean, I'm behind the movement for better gun control, but as always, I don't like misrepresenting things just to make a point, even if I agree with the point. I get just as bugged by Moore's cartoon as I do when I watch pretty much any clip from Fox News. There's just so much wrong information presented in misleading ways that it takes much longer to unpack and correct it. That's why I like Jon Stewart, there is still a joke to be made, but at least the presentation felt more honest. The Daily Show is a good example that you don't need to misrepresent the facts in order to make a point or a joke, or to show that someone or some organization is being ridiculous.

I didn't like the cartoon because I don't want there to be two sides that resort to the same level of fact distortion with the only difference being what side of an issue they sit on. I want people to base their decisions on as accurate an understanding of reality as they can get.

[Magdalena]

^^
Nice, Davin, looks like you were paying attention in history class.  Not everyone did, that's why they don't know why some things are the way they are today.

[Magdalena]

When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!

Preach it sister.

Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA.   

I was there in March - I think I saw you.  Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch?  I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.

Yes, that was me. 
No, I didn't collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch. The Po-Po approached me, I said, "Don't you try to pull a Rodney King on me!" I pulled out my cell phone and started recording them. They left me alone. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!

Preach it sister.

Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA.   

I was there in March - I think I saw you.  Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch?  I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.

Yes, that was me. 
No, I didn't collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch. The Po-Po approached me, I said, "Don't you try to pull a Rodney King on me!" I pulled out my cell phone and started recording them. They left me alone. 

Attagirl! Pagans' lives matter!

[Magdalena]

When they "freak out" they are becoming the law makers, the enforcers of the law, the judges, and they give the death sentence in a matter of minutes. They can't do that!

Preach it sister.

Sorry, I get a little carried away.
I live in Los Angeles, CA.   

I was there in March - I think I saw you.  Did you collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch?  I was in a tour bus so I couldn't help.

Yes, that was me. 
No, I didn't collect enuf coins at the traffic light to get lunch. The Po-Po approached me, I said, "Don't you try to pull a Rodney King on me!" I pulled out my cell phone and started recording them. They left me alone. 

Attagirl! Pagans' lives matter!

My attorney has asked me to read the following statement:
"I can neither confirm nor deny that I agree with your statement regarding Pagans, your statement is extremely accurate, and that your statement made me LOL. –Thank you."