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"Baby, it's cold outside" and rape culture

Started by Sandra Craft, December 30, 2015, 08:17:59 AM

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Pasta Chick

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 30, 2015, 11:42:55 PM
Who knew stick figures could be so evocative!?  And no, that probably wouldn't have flown in 1949.

One other thing I meant to mention but forgot, was that the line that stands out to me as the most objectionable: "say, what's in this drink?", shows up unaltered in "Baby, it's consensual outside".  I wonder if Greta just missed that, or if there's some non-roofy explanation for it that I don't get.

I don't know that roofies were a thing yet, as far as the historical context of the song. The explanation I've always heard is that in historical context, women weren't really supposed to drink for the sake of drinking, but booze was also an excuse to other socially unacceptable behavior ("I'd never do this normally, what's in this drink anyway?"). She essentially blaming her "wrong" choice to stay on being buzzed.

Pasta Chick

As far as Gone With the Wind... It's not exactly a socially enlightened movie. I always took that scene to be rape, but I never took Rhett and Scarlett's "love story" as something to strive for or pine after. They're pretty much just horrible, manipulative people abusing eachother - which Rhett even says several times. He mistakenly takes it to mean they're perfect for eachother.

Not long ago, I read an article from a woman who had been raped twice. I'll try to find it but I doubt I'll be able - the jist was that everyone processes trauma of any sort differently. That includes rape. The narrative that rape is The Worst Thing You Can Do To A Woman (TM) and something that will cause life-long scars she will never recover from needs to end. For one thing, it takes male and trans* victims out of the picture entirely. It also continues to reduce a woman's value to her body and sexuality. And it's just not true - it is for some people, certainly, but many others including the author of the peice have moved on and don't feel ruined or truamatized or even very effected day to day at all.

I'd see Scarlett as falling in with the author. Here's this woman who is used to extreme hardships, she does whatever she has to do, often choosing unpleasant tasks that will provide personal gain. And she has most certainly used sex as a means to an end. Getting railed by her drunk husband when she doesn't feel like it probably isn't that bad a night for her. Not to say she deserved it or that his behavior is ok because she wasn't traumatized by that specific incident. It probably sucked, but it wasn't The Worst Thing Ever that ruined her life.

Tank

Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 02, 2016, 04:33:46 PM
As far as Gone With the Wind... It's not exactly a socially enlightened movie. I always took that scene to be rape, but I never took Rhett and Scarlett's "love story" as something to strive for or pine after. They're pretty much just horrible, manipulative people abusing eachother - which Rhett even says several times. He mistakenly takes it to mean they're perfect for eachother.

Not long ago, I read an article from a woman who had been raped twice. I'll try to find it but I doubt I'll be able - the jist was that everyone processes trauma of any sort differently. That includes rape. The narrative that rape is The Worst Thing You Can Do To A Woman (TM) and something that will cause life-long scars she will never recover from needs to end. For one thing, it takes male and trans* victims out of the picture entirely. It also continues to reduce a woman's value to her body and sexuality. And it's just not true - it is for some people, certainly, but many others including the author of the peice have moved on and don't feel ruined or truamatized or even very effected day to day at all.

I'd see Scarlett as falling in with the author. Here's this woman who is used to extreme hardships, she does whatever she has to do, often choosing unpleasant tasks that will provide personal gain. And she has most certainly used sex as a means to an end. Getting railed by her drunk husband when she doesn't feel like it probably isn't that bad a night for her. Not to say she deserved it or that his behavior is ok because she wasn't traumatized by that specific incident. It probably sucked, but it wasn't The Worst Thing Ever that ruined her life.

I so agree with what I have highlighted. Being a victim once does not make one a victim forever.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ecurb Noselrub

To the idea that "no means no", I would like to add the old man's perspective: "I can't" means "I can't."  I just wish all these younger women would understand that.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Pasta Chick on January 02, 2016, 04:33:46 PM
As far as Gone With the Wind... It's not exactly a socially enlightened movie. I always took that scene to be rape, but I never took Rhett and Scarlett's "love story" as something to strive for or pine after. They're pretty much just horrible, manipulative people abusing each other - which Rhett even says several times. He mistakenly takes it to mean they're perfect for each other.

. . .

I'd see Scarlett as falling in with the author. Here's this woman who is used to extreme hardships, she does whatever she has to do, often choosing unpleasant tasks that will provide personal gain. And she has most certainly used sex as a means to an end. Getting railed by her drunk husband when she doesn't feel like it probably isn't that bad a night for her. Not to say she deserved it or that his behavior is ok because she wasn't traumatized by that specific incident. It probably sucked, but it wasn't The Worst Thing Ever that ruined her life.

This is where I think we can get into trouble judging the past by the present.  I remember first seeing GWTW in the late 60s (back then you had wait until a theater had a revival night for old movies) and altho I also reacted to the up-the-staircase scene as a rape, so that the morning after shot didn't ring true for me, the rest of my family thought it was pure romance.  And I knew it was supposed to be romantic because that's how Margaret Mitchell wrote it -- Scarlett loved that night with Rhett, she was embarrassed about enjoying sex but she definitely loved it. 

I can remember, when I was growing up, being told point blank that husbands had conjugal rights -- something that wasn't merely accepted but unquestioned to the point were other women would not call a husband forcing himself on his wife rape.  I'm sure they thought it was unfortunate, but it was the husband's right and the wife's fault if he felt he needed to use force.  Again, bear in mind it was other women telling me this.  And then they couldn't understand why I was unenthusiastic about marriage.

With that being how it was in the 60s, I can believe that in the 30s Mitchell really did consider Rhett Butler a romantic hero. 
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Davin

I can see how the "Baby, it's cold outside" song could be played off as some kind of playful type of thing. To me though, it sounds rapey.

There is nothing wrong with using our current level of knowledge and understanding to criticize older things. But I do think there is a problem by saying, "hey, it's old, so don't judge with your fancy new morals." It's fine to understand that things in the past weren't optimal, just like in the future we will learn that our current understanding is lacking.

Watching the original Star Trek series and seeing all the sexism is a bit disturbing. It's even more disturbing when you learn that as far as sexism goes, it was more progressive than most other shows at the time. Using my modern judgy eyes, I can see that Start Trek: TOS is both fairly sexist and also progressive for it's time. However if I look at GWTW and compare that with a lot of movies out at the time, there were some better films, in terms of not being rapey, and some worse ones. In that sense, I judge GWTW as at best about average. Even with my judgy modern eyes I can say that Star Trek: TOS stands out as a beacon of its time while I can't still say that about GWTW. Of course I'm talking about the movie, I never read the GWTW book.

The question I think is perfectly fine to ask, is whether the thing in question is helping to better things or not. Not whether it would help better things now, but if it did then. In that context, I find being judgmental from our more enlightened position to be just fine.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Asmodean

Hm... Words have meaning, but then again they don't. People tend to hear what they want to hear, whether it be no to sex or yes to higher property taxes.

I think the world would be a completely different place if people in general were only half as adept at twisting words as they are.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.