What if I said.......

[SteveS]

Hey ShimShamSam - you're making sense to me.  I'll try to help illustrate why lack of evidence against something is not the same as evidence for something --- but I'm given to wonder if I'll have any better luck then you did.  Also, it appears that the lack of ability to falsify a claim doesn't seem to bother theists too much (although, it should  :wink:  ).

Shim, There is not any proof whatsoever that God does not exist. Absolutely non whatsoever.

Interesting.  Does this go for just the muslim god, or all gods?  In others words, is there any proof that Zeus does not exist?  (I know, you ignored this the last time I wrote it, but I'm patient - its okay).

Suppose, for example, that I was a believer in the ancient Egyptian religion.  Then, my creation myth runs something like:

There was a great ocean from which appeared dry land, then the Sun God Ra appeared upon the land as the first sunrise and created all life.

Now, I can say to you, Death?, your very existence is proof to me of the existence of Ra.  He created all life, so the fact that you are living is proof of Ra's existence.  Also, I would like to point out, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of the non-existence of Ra.  None.  Period.  Zippo.

But - now I've got a problem.  The existence of living things is both proof of Ra and proof of Death?'s muslim god.  So - which is it?

The problem, of course, comes from not understanding proof (which Willravel has posted a definition of).  With multiple competing god-as-life-creator-claims, the existence of life is obviously insufficient to arrive at a surety that any of these gods exist; or, if one does, which is the correct one.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that you take lack of evidence against the existence of a thing to be proof of the existence of a thing.  For example, I claim right here and now that there is a magical fire-breathing dragon in my room.  What evidence do you have against this claim?  None.  Yet --- do you find yourself believing it?  Probably not, right?  Obviously, to believe in something, we're going to need positive evidence in favor of it.  Not simply a lack of evidence against it.

Dude, just think about it for a minute or two: it really does make sense.

[Tom62]

Proof of our existence doesn't mean proof of god. There isn't a single thread of evidence that god exists. As a matter of fact. all gods in human history were invented by humans. In most cases these gods are pretty brutal, selfish or just plain silly. Maybe it is just my lack of imagination that I can't believe in them.

I have no problems if people do believe in a creator. What I don't like is when these beliefs are converted into so called "Truths" and forced upon other people.

[Death?]

Shim,how many times do you want me to answer this?

You are insulting my intelligence, and your own in the process.

No I cannot think of any hypothetical proof, that if I were confronted with, would cause me to convert to atheism.

So what im trying to say is that aliens can land and say they created the universe, all the mosques on earth can be blown to smithereens, and I can become paralised tomorrow, but that will not stop me from believing.

Do you have any ideas that would convince me to turn to atheism?

Now read very carefully shim, so that you dont repeat the same thing incoherently. The reason i say no "proof" can ever be disclosed to me or any strong muslim is because we believe we know the reasoning behind why things happen. There are things that far outreach our mind capacity, and is onlywith God, but my faith leads me to believe, that God does things for a reason. But to explain to someone like you, i need to write lengthy passages, and im willing to do that.

Let me give you an example, a common question by your side is "why do children die"

Now first and foremost, there is a very important aspect in Islam. That is patience. Patience doesnt just mean waiting around, it means going through good and bad times remembering God, because through tests, such as losing a child, if you lose your faith in God and begin to curse him etc, then you have severely failed. Likewise, if God blesses you with wealth for example, and you fail to praise him on a continuous basis (as we should be doing) then you have also failed that test, and to him you will return nevertheless.

Secondly in regards to that example, the teachings ofIslam also strongly emphasise, that children under the age of seven are completely innocent of all sin. Now if a child dies before the age of sven, they are destined eternelly to heaven, whereby they live in pleasure forever. The children also intercede when their parents are in front of God when being questioned, and also take theyr parents into heaven with them, the level of paradise dictated by the patience held by the parents in this life.

Now to respond to your comment regarding, I would believe in God if he showed himself to me... Youve not really thought about that hav you sham?

Of course you would believe in God if he appeared to you in all his majesty, and you would probably never move from bowing to him, but that would defeat the purpose to why you were born in the first place? Does it not make sense to you? Please tell me if not making sense? This life is a test, a test to recognise God, do your research establish the correct way of life an submission, live your life accordingly and expect paradise forever, not just seventy odd years.

WILLRAFEL....

You are a theist. You are a deist. You are a monotheist. You're fundamentalist. You're anti-evolutionist.

You might as well be Christian.

The latter is not as offensive.Im in a forum,discussing what i deem as constructive debates, and you call me a fundamentalist.Your american right?
Just to make things clear, and establish a few degrading facts, would you class yourself as atheist first or american first?

This is why i was hesitant to declare i am a Muslim, but hey, what am i to expect when we hav willrafel calling the shots. Peace be unto you man, regardless of how you may see me. I hope this isnt the white race superiority complex we have emerging from beneath the evolution sanctuary. You upset and dissapoint

[SteveS]

I hope this isnt the white race superiority complex we have emerging from beneath the evolution sanctuary.

May I be the first to say, WTF?

[Death?]

you know, darwins black monkey people, eventually climbing the evolution ladder to the advanced white man level. Its usually affiliated with degrading all others who are different, especially muslims, whom of many are coloured. But the beauty of islam is, all are equal. No disrespecting and no wrongdoing.

[McQ]

you know, darwins black monkey people, eventually climbing the evolution ladder to the advanced white man level. Its usually affiliated with degrading all others who are different, especially muslims, whom of many are coloured. But the beauty of islam is, all are equal. No disrespecting and no wrongdoing.

OK, Death, I've been hesitant to step in here, but you are exceeding the bounds of reasonable debate, civility, and decorum.

You have twisted other peoples' words here to try to make it appear as though everyone else is being incoherent and you alone are being clear. This is not the case. You have told people you are offended by their words, yet you try to belittle and demean others in this discussion. This is inappropriate and will not continue to be tolerated. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what religion or race you may be. Those things do not matter in this forum.

You will not continue to create Straw Man arguments or imply that other people here are being racist.

The biggest problem I see here is that you have not been up front with people and only now are trying to state why you argue the things you do. Additionally, you have shown a lack of ability in grasping the most basic scientific principles involved in evolution. Then you have the nerve to say that your so-called science is far superior to what others here have brought up. Time to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. You want science? Then start talking science and stop talking gibberish. If you want to argue science then be prepared to do so, and brush up on biology, physics, chemistry, geology, and even history.

If English is not your first language, you get points for trying, but if it is, then please begin to write coherently. Your sentences and paragraphs need to start making sense by even the most fundamental grammatical ways.

And you will need to stop with the ad hominem attacks and stick to the subject matter at hand.

In case I missed it from anyone else, I would remind all members to do the same and try to stick to the topic. Do not put words in other peoples' mouths, and argue the points made, as frustrating as it is right now, since no real points are being made. So far, so good.

Thanks all.

[Will]

The latter is not as offensive.Im in a forum,discussing what i deem as constructive debates, and you call me a fundamentalist.Your american right?
Just to make things clear, and establish a few degrading facts, would you class yourself as atheist first or american first?

I don't classify myself as an atheist at all. I classify myself as a rationalist. Atheist describes what I am not, therefore using it as a way to classify myself doesn't make sense.

This is why i was hesitant to declare i am a Muslim, but hey, what am i to expect when we hav willrafel calling the shots. Peace be unto you man, regardless of how you may see me. I hope this isnt the white race superiority complex we have emerging from beneath the evolution sanctuary. You upset and dissapoint

As a Muslim, then you must know that you are, in fact, an incarnation of Christianity, just as Christianity was an incarnation of Judaism. Muslims believe in the existence and miracles of Jesus Christ, therefore calling you a Christian, or a monotheist who's beliefs center around the teachings of Jesus Christ, isn't really too far off. I just missed Muhammad and the Qur'an.

I'm really surprised that you, as a Muslim, don't believe in evolution considering it appears in your own scriptures numerous times. It's the reason I assumed that you were Christian. As much as I'd like to show off my knowledge of Islam, it's a lot quicker just to lead you to a link.
http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/isl ... /index.asp


As an aside, please make up your mind regarding how to spell my screen name.

[ShimShamSam]

Well thank you Death? I appreciate your straight forward answer, apparently there were some communication errors. I just wanted to hear you say that there is no amount of proof, no matter how inconceivable that you could be confronted with in the future that would make you change your faith.  It's good that your so locked into your beliefs that nothing could possibly tear them away from you even if you were confronted with any form of overwhelming evidence, no matter what it is, you're not willing to change.

I can respect that, I honestly can't say I have it in my to have such loyalty and obedience to an idea.

[Whitney]

Death? I do not personally take issue with you being Muslim and I have had friends who are Muslim and would still if moving after college didn't split us up...my favorite professor is Muslim, a very nice man.  That said, I don't have to like your belief system.

But, we aren't discussing why you are Muslim...you are more interested in discussing why you believe we should believe in God, right?

I do not understand how you are not able to accept evolution as a real theory that is grounded in observable fact....almost every Muslim I've spoken to about evolution instead will go on and on and on and on about how it described in the Koran.

To avoid potentially avoid a long technical discussion about evolution and God....evolution has practically nothing to do with if a god exists or not.  At most it has shown that some creation myths missed the boat; but it doesn't affect religious beliefs related to a creator.  To say it again, natural selection has nothing to do with how life and the universe started in the first place.

When we ask ourselves if god exists we are not asking about how life changed over time or if it changed at all...we are going for a more basic question...why does anything exist at all.  Evolution doesn't answer that and therefore shouldn't really matter when we discuss religion unless we just want to argue about if a certain religion is true or not....and most if not all religions can incorporate evolution into their belief set if they so choose.

----

As for the death topic...death is simply a fact of life that exists whether there is a god or not.  Once we decide if there is a god that is when we must come to terms with what that means to us personally when facing death.  I don't particularly like the idea of not existing some day but I also don't particularly like the prospects of living forever in worship...but if there isn't a god I won't be around to be sad about my not being around.  If there is a God then at least I can say I was true to myself.  The real bad part about death (for both theists and atheists) is missing those you love after they died.

[SteveS]

I'd certainly like to second the "no prejudice against Muslims" comments made above.  My kid's doctor (pediatrician) is very clearly Muslim - and he's also very clearly a competent and responsible doctor.  I place my trust in him entirely to safeguard my children's health, and his conduct, obvious competency, and professionalism give me no reason to believe I've made a poor decision.  In fact, I think I lucked out finding this guy and recommend him to anyone who asks me.  Do I agree with his faith?  No.  Does it matter?  No.  I don't consult him for religious opinions, I consult him for medical opinions.

I don't think any of the board members posting in this thread have shown a proclivity toward racism.  The "darwins black monkey people" statement appears, to me, to be completely out of line.  This belies a serious lack of understanding about evolution --- and we don't have to keep qualifying evolution as "Darwin's evolution".  Darwin was the original author of the scientific theory of evolution, but modern science has extended our understanding of the original theory.  Why not consider the theory and information as it exists now, rather than trying to blast Darwin?  The guy has been dead for over 100 years!  And people don't believe the theory because it was Darwin who proposed it (contrast with Mohammad and Jesus), but rather because they've tested it and its predictions and cannot falsify it --- observed factual reality corresponds with and corroborates the theory.  There's no need to "trust" or "have faith" in Darwin that evolutionary theory has validity --- we can demonstrate that it has validity.

Having said that, nothing in evolutionary theory suggests that white people are somehow superior to black people (or any other color people).  All currently existing species (and subspecies, or races) are "equally evolved", if you can use such a term.  Evolution does not pursue a goal --- it just happens.  If a variation causes a survival advantage to members of a species, that trait tends to propagate and become more common among the living members of the species in question.  But - the environment is constantly changing, as is the balance between competing species, so that what was an advantage yesterday might be a disadvantage tomorrow.  There is no adequate way to judge a species, or individual member of a species, as being "better".  Better in a certain way, in a certain circumstance?  Sure.  But not "better" according to some disconnected all-inclusive ranking.

Fish are not better than monkeys.  People are not better than apes.  Hummingbirds are not better than yeasts.  Yeasts are not better than the flu virus.

Human races, I would also like to point out, aren't even different species.  And our most direct common ancestor probably resembled an ape (not a monkey).  We are not descended from monkeys or apes, but rather from something that was similar to an ape.  The modern animals that we are most closely related to, genealogically (and morphologically), is the apes.

My major objection to your arguments and point of view is the theistic views you hold --- I would disagree with these points whether they were put forward by a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Deist, or whoever.

Oh, and to laetusatheos,

The real bad part about death (for both theists and atheists) is missing those you love after they died.

Indeed - this is why I'm far more worried about other people dying than about dying myself.  Because I apparently have a selfish streak  :wink:  .

[jaymayo]

God loved us, and has given everyone an opportunity to enter eternal bliss, as "the joys in this life are but an illusion" where when GOD ALMIGHTY WILL ANNOUNCE, TODAY I HAVE PUT DEATH TO DEATH ITSELF, AND NO MORE WILL ANYBODY DIE, REJOICE THE PEOPLE OF HEAVEN, AND CRIES WILL BE HEARD TO INCREASE FROM HELL.

I like how you say "God LOVED us." Past tense? Quick! Hit the edit button.

[Loffler]

"Any haters would increase my resolve". You'd be surprised how often people say (essentially) that to me before debating. "Your arguments are only going to convince me I'm more right."

To which you can respond: "Well, that certainly explains your current level of conviction."

[Asmodean]

Ugh, can someone help me out here, I keep repeating my point but Death? keeps failing to grasp it. Can someone else say they understand so I know I'm not talking total nonsense.

Death? is, apparently, a semi-trollish theist. Nothing to do with you, Sam

I will try one last time. I'm an atheist, mainly because of a general lack of evidence that points directly and indisputably to god.

You do not believe in god because there is no evidence of such a god. Nothing wrong with that.

However if I was confronted by such proof I would gladly convert. Some proof would be like god making an appearance to thousands of people in the middle of a football game or what not, and then demonstrating his almighty power to remove all doubt it was a trick, maybe creating adam and ever again on the 50 yard line.

In other words, prove god beyond an doubt and you will convert. Fair enough, although I would not worship it no mater how real it was.

I am an atheist due to lack of proof of god, you are a theist due to a lack of  proof to disprove his existence.

Not really, theists are theists due to their faith in the existence of gods. Many of them would remain theists even when confronted with such proof, if ever one could prove that something that does not exist really does not exist.

I'm guessing there isn't because the belief in god requires so little proof. Can someone else please respond to this and tell me if I'm making a valid point? If not I'll shut up.

Overall, you make valid points, yes. Try to make them more crispy-clear though, as some theists can sling expensive words about but can't really read complex sentences :-P