The Joker

[Miss Anthrope]

Just wanted to jump into the discussion. I was a huge fan of The Dark Knight and I did love Heath's portrayal of the joker, but I thought the brilliance of the movie lied within the relationship between joker/batman/dent.

I have a hard time understanding the "worship" of The Joker though. He is easily one of my favorite villains but that is due more to his twisted sense of humor as well as his charisma.

But, anyway to agree with or even talk about The Joker's "philosophy" is just beyond me because I don't think he really has any "philosophy" to speak of. Maybe... maybe you could argue he is an anarchist, or some deranged discordian, but I think  people are looking to closely into the character. I would argue that The Joker is not that complex.

To begin with there are multiple origin stories for The Joker as with most comic book characters but the one I am familiar with and also the one I feel like the Joker in the movie represented was The Killing Joke by Alan Moore, yes the Alan Moore.

Basically it can be argued that The Joker and Batman are one in the same, they just have two very different perspective. It's this duality that makes The Joker the greatest of the Batman villains. Both have been shaped by some tragic event that defines there life. Both have decided that they are "above the law" so to speak and have removed themselves from society. Both feel that they are the ultimate moral authority... the difference is Batman believes that deep down we are all good while The Joker believes that deep down we are all evil. Batman hopes to inspire people that goodness will overcome evil. The Joker tries to tear down the society restraints that people have to show that they are evil.

If your not familiar with The Killing Joke a quick summary goes like this. The Joker is an average man fallen on hard times, he agrees to help the mob rob the plant where he was laid off out of desperation to support his pregnant wife. His wife dies in a tragic accident, later that day he tries to back out  from his deal with the mob. They don't let him, the robbery goes wrong and he is horriably scared. This breaks him, he loses his shit so to speak. He feels that deep down we are all standing on the brink of insanity, that all we need is "one bad day" (this is referred to often in The Killing Joke).

In The Killing Joke the Joker sets out to destroy Commissioner Gordon by terrorizing him but fails, in The Dark Knight he successfully breaks Harvey Dent, who was the "white knight" or the best Gotham had to offer. In both cases he has a need to "break" people to justify his own insanity.

To sum The Joker up, he is a man who was faced with a tragic event and lost it, he terrorizes people to push them over the edge so he can justify his own insanity. In other words he needs to believe that if any of us were in his shoes we would of lost our shit too, this then makes him "normal". People worship him as some kind of hero cause he goes against the flow, and has disregard for society, but his motivations are to prove to himself that he is normal. This is well, pathetic in a sense, I mean it's his desire to prove that he is just like everyone else that drives him.

Sorry if it seemed like I was ignoring your thoughts. What happened was that I started reading your comment while the page was loading, and loffler's pic from below did that thing where part of the screen doesn't catch up, so it looked like your post was written by Loffler. I've had some...issues..with Loffler, hence why I started my reply with "How nice, something we can agree on..."

Good point, I agree that the Joker doesn't really have a "philosophy" so to speak, not a coherent one anyway. I would also agree that he isn't as complex as many people make him out to be, but more specifically I would say that his behavior and goals are not complex; he is an extrememly intelligent character, and I think that paired with whatever psychological issues/trauma (as far as the "Dark Knight"'s Joker) he's experienced resulted in a mind that became TOO complex for its own good, so he went over the edge and "fell down" to a more primtive/Id-like level. In some ways we all try, or at least desire, to make the world reflect ourselve's while also being reflections OF the world, like an odd dynamic mirror of sorts, perfectly fitting considering the heavily dualistic themes.
When the Joker went "back to basics", his natural response was to try and turn people into creatures like himself, make the world anarchistic. In the Killing Joke, i think ,as you say, the joker's motives were more about making people like himself to justify his behavior. I think this is one of the subtle differnces between that Joker and the Dark Knight's Joker, who we weren't provided enough background information for.

[VanReal]

How liberating that must be to just say and do what you please and have no thoughts or worries about their affect on other people.  That was what was most appealing to me in this portrayal of the Joker, I really got the feeling that he was free.  Not that I want to be an uncaring sociopath in real life, but I'd love to be able to go in a flip-off my boss, laugh and do cartwheels out the front door.  Actually not caring or having that nagging worry and conscience must feel wonderful....of course only for the period of time before you go mad and can't control yourself.

[Miss Anthrope]

How liberating that must be to just say and do what you please and have no thoughts or worries about their affect on other people.  That was what was most appealing to me in this portrayal of the Joker, I really got the feeling that he was free.  Not that I want to be an uncaring sociopath in real life, but I'd love to be able to go in a flip-off my boss, laugh and do cartwheels out the front door.  Actually not caring or having that nagging worry and conscience must feel wonderful....of course only for the period of time before you go mad and can't control yourself.

Oh, without a doubt! I almost felt guilty for thinking such a thing, but I think everyone felt that. I mean, I would love to be able to just laugh (enjoy?) while plunging to my death from a building or while I'm being beaten senseless. There really is an element of "freedom" in crazy characters, and I believe that's a huge part of the appeal, whether the characters are benign/cute/funny or dangerously insane.

[VanReal]

So true!  I'd even be okay with being Stewie, expecially since no one can hear him but the dog.  Oh well, that's what dreams are for right??

[parllagio]

How liberating that must be to just say and do what you please and have no thoughts or worries about their affect on other people.  That was what was most appealing to me in this portrayal of the Joker, I really got the feeling that he was free.  Not that I want to be an uncaring sociopath in real life, but I'd love to be able to go in a flip-off my boss, laugh and do cartwheels out the front door.  Actually not caring or having that nagging worry and conscience must feel wonderful....of course only for the period of time before you go mad and can't control yourself.

My point though about The Joker, and granted I am drawing from The Killing Joke as well as The Dark Knight, was that he is not free. He is driven by a need to justify his own downfall. He has to F**k with you in an attempt to push you over the edge which justifies his own insanity. This to me is his obsession with Batman, if he could just get Batman to lose his shit then it would prove to him that anyone can be pushed over the edge thus justifying his own downfall.


And to Miss Anthrope

When the Joker went "back to basics", his natural response was to try and turn people into creatures like himself, make the world anarchistic. In the Killing Joke, i think ,as you say, the joker's motives were more about making people like himself to justify his behavior. I think this is one of the subtle differnces between that Joker and the Dark Knight's Joker, who we weren't provided enough background information for.

I agree we weren't provided with enough back ground information about The Joker in The Dark Knight, but the reason I feel The Joker in The Dark Knight is comparable to The Joker in The Killing Joke was the relationship he had with Harvey Dent. When I watched the hospital scene all I could think about was The Killing Joke and how he was this time going to accomplish his goal with Harvey Dent.

To your other point about The Joker falling back to a more primitive behavior. This is I guess what could be The Joker's philosophy, that we are nothing more than animals and when exposed we will tear each other apart. But this I feel is wrong, and a sad viewpoint. Yes, we are animals but we evolved to be social animals, we rely upon one another and while we can be responsible for horrible actions, we usually do so to protect ourselves and those like us, or to further our cause. This kind of thinking is the biggest beef I have with Christianity because I feel that deep down we are all caring and decent human beings who will go to great lengths to help one another (there are exceptions to this rule but those are a small minority). Christianity teaches us that we have all fallen short of the glory of god, that we are sinners and should be ashamed of ourselves, this is a horrible zeitgeist in today's society. This is why most people feel as though we are at the end of times and that everything is far worse now than it ever has been.

[VanReal]

My point though about The Joker, and granted I am drawing from The Killing Joke as well as The Dark Knight, was that he is not free. He is driven by a need to justify his own downfall. He has to F**k with you in an attempt to push you over the edge which justifies his own insanity. This to me is his obsession with Batman, if he could just get Batman to lose his shit then it would prove to him that anyone can be pushed over the edge thus justifying his own downfall.

Understood.  I meant free from a conscience telling im what he was doing was wrong.  Not that he wasn't internally tormented or that he didn't have agendas and goals driving him.  That's why I only wanted that ability momentarily, before the crazy sets in.

[Loffler]

I loved the lack of background for the Dark Knight Joker. It made him so much more ghastly and menacing. They even faked me out: I remember feeling slightly disappointed when he explained how he got his scars... and then delighted when he gave an entirely different story the second time. Every time they built on this theme -- never giving a name, nothing in his pockets but knives and razors -- I ate it up. He was born fully formed from the brow of Zeus.

[Miss Anthrope]

I loved the lack of background for the Dark Knight Joker. It made him so much more ghastly and menacing. They even faked me out: I remember feeling slightly disappointed when he explained how he got his scars... and the delighted when he gave an entirely different story the second time. Every time they built on this theme -- never giving a name, nothing in his pockets but knives and razors -- I ate it up. He was born fully formed from the brow of Zeus

Same here, the sense of mystery surrounding the character was very effective. It really added to the vague "Is he even a real person?" feeling. Also, his second explanation for his scars was great becasue, as if there weren't enough reasons to know he was insane, that's when it becomes fully clear how disconnected from reality he is.

[AlP]

I think the Joker was the most intriguing character in the Dark Knight. To me, he seems like the product of a traumatic childhood, perhaps adapting to an abusive environment as a child that lead him to become maladapted as a man. I see him as having learned to dissociate as a child as a defense mechanism, his other self absorbing all his fear and anger and gradually becoming the Joker. Then as a man his alter-ego takes over (I wonder if there was a power struggle between his two egos) and a lifetime of fear and rage explodes into Gotham city. The dissociation explains a few things to me, like how childlike he is (his alter-ego did not develop during his childhood) and why so many parts of his psyche are missing (they aren't really missing, but they aren't part of the alter-ego). His alter-ego easily embraces nihilism and replaces right and wrong with victory and defeat, which we see in his sparring with the Batman. He sees the morality of society as a weakness to be exploited. But for what purpose? I think he just wants conflict and chaos. He wants to tear up the lives of those who are moral and show them error of their (in his mind) hypocritical, weak and inferior moral values. I often wonder how Nietzsche's Ãœbermensch would turn out. The Joker?

This was a highly speculative analysis of a fictional character based on almost no supporting evidence. How rational of me! It was fun though.

[Miss Anthrope]

I think the Joker was the most intriguing character in the Dark Knight. To me, he seems like the product of a traumatic childhood, perhaps adapting to an abusive environment as a child that lead him to become maladapted as a man. I see him as having learned to dissociate as a child as a defense mechanism, his other self absorbing all his fear and anger and gradually becoming the Joker. Then as a man his alter-ego takes over (I wonder if there was a power struggle between his two egos) and a lifetime of fear and rage explodes into Gotham city. The dissociation explains a few things to me, like how childlike he is (his alter-ego did not develop during his childhood) and why so many parts of his psyche are missing (they aren't really missing, but they aren't part of the alter-ego). His alter-ego easily embraces nihilism and replaces right and wrong with victory and defeat, which we see in his sparring with the Batman. He sees the morality of society as a weakness to be exploited. But for what purpose? I think he just wants conflict and chaos. He wants to tear up the lives of those who are moral and show them error of their (in his mind) hypocritical, weak and inferior moral values. I often wonder how Nietzsche's Ãœbermensch would turn out. The Joker?

This was a highly speculative analysis of a fictional character based on almost no supporting evidence. How rational of me! It was fun though.

Well, he a pretty enigmatic character, so that's all we can really do, speculate. It is fun, though!

I think your analysis was very good, and probably about as close to a concise and accurate theoy of the Joker's past as you can get. Of course, there's also always the possibility that he didn't even have a traumatic childhood, he's just simply screwed up beyond belief due to some sever chemical imbalances.

One thing that appealed to me about this new Joker was his messy style, his exterior matched his internal "decay". I'm not a "dirty" person, but I do tend to find things in a state of deterioration visually appealing, for instance old houses with faded paint and cracks, etc, just seem more natural, and this theme could probably be carried over in a more extreme way to the Joker, he sees society always trying so hard to maintain itself, humans and their constant struggle to bury their primal urges in favor of convoluted rules, and he wants to put an end to the facade. I feel the same way when I watch people who are obsessive about keeping every square inch of their house perfect, or their car, or shoes,  perfectly clean. I could never own a house with a big yard because I would just let it go to hell, I just can't see putting any extraneous effort into controlling nature, its kind of weird how we obtain these little pieces of land and then treat them like our living rooms.