Future of theism

[Mister Joy]

Mister Joy you sound like some one that has found the tea pot orbiting the Sun and is very confidence is an English Tea pot. !!!!

I've no idea what this is supposed to mean but I'm assuming that it's an insult rather than a compliment, given the English stereotype references and your previously expressed dislike for English people; what with their 'hypocritical', crusade-like over-tolerance of Muslims (as you explained so well ). Just in case, though, please elaborate.

Although I disagree with Mister Joy on the earlier statement that a OIL war is coming (somethin like that)

I appreciate how paranoid it sounded. I was thinking of throwing in some self-mocking tongue-in-cheek in there but hey, I can't help believing it. The US and the UK, together, have messed up international relations with pretty much all net exporters left on the planet and I don't have enough faith in either of our leaders to assume that they will depend on trying to make friends (which would involve humbling ourselves to Russia and other nation states, denouncing what power and influence we think we have - they have the oil, we are their bitches, basically) rather than just wading into the East with troops and bombs to secure wells and pipe lines. Call it pessimistic but I think the latter is more likely, particularly considering it's already happening.

[Mister Joy]

I was US Marines my self, and I was stupid enogh to join the Marines. However I had a better rank since I spoke Farsi and thats what they need, but I am sure there are very smart people in the military, on the other hand I am not talking jsut about USA. USA and UK is not the world, look at the millitary of many other countries.

They're not the world but they're part of the world. If your military ignorance theory doesn't apply to them then ignorance in the world will not be abolished.

[filip3rd]

I've no idea what this is supposed to mean but I'm assuming that it's an insult rather than a compliment, given the English stereotype references and your previously expressed dislike for English people; what with their 'hypocritical', crusade-like over-tolerance of Muslims (as you explained so well ). Just in case, though, please elaborate.

Insulting? Not at all, it just seems you are pretty sure about your believe and optimism. All I am saying is don’t be naive and think the basket in full of good apple and only few bad. I urge you to go live in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan as an Atheist or Christians whatever you are and you shall change your mind if you even survive and not being beheaded.

[Mister Joy]

Insulting? Not at all, it just seems you are pretty sure about your believe and optimism.

Ah. I apologise for the misinterpretation.

All I am saying is don’t be naive and think the basket in full of good apple and only few bad. I urge you to go live in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan as an Atheist or Christians whatever you are and you shall change your mind if you even survive and not being beheaded.

What we were discussing in the other topic ('UK to adopt sharia law?') is Muslims within the UK, exclusively; the vast majority of which are not 'bad apples' as you put it. Don't get me wrong, though, I acknowledge that there are many more extreme points of view elsewhere and bear this in mind within the context of this topic.

what I suggested before is that any 'coming war' which may or may not occur in the future will most likely have the advertised justification and support of religious extremes but that will not be the true cause. People have an unnerving tendency to tie their religious faiths to their other agendas.

[Smarmy Of One]

Just a side bar, but any "oil war" would not have to be fought in open battle in the desert. It could just as well be waged secretly in board rooms with lawyers and business men as the ground troops.

Just for the record, Mr. Joy, I think the oil war is already here.

[Smarmy Of One]

I urge you to go live in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan as an Atheist or Christians whatever you are and you shall change your mind if you even survive and not being beheaded.

I think you might be confusing extremist theocracies for muslims in general.

If you want to talk about human rights restrictions, you could just as well go to a bar in Texas on Saturday night and stand on a table and declare you are a Farsi speaking atheist and see what happens to you.

 

[Mister Joy]

Just a side bar, but any "oil war" would not have to be fought in open battle in the desert. It could just as well be waged secretly in board rooms with lawyers and business men as the ground troops.

Just for the record, Mr. Joy, I think the oil war is already here.

This is true. And yes, I think the 'oil war', the way in which you describe it, has been going on for decades. Since American oil peaked, basically, which was early 70s; so very early on comparatively. Also, why do you suppose the UK became such good palls with the US at around the turn of the century? It wasn't 9/11, or the terrorist threat, or any of those things. Truth of the matter: our oil peaked in 1999. Our government is worried, and wants in on whatever loot the Americans can get hold of.

I'd be impressed if it stayed diplomatic though. It has to be kept in mind that a lot of nations are absolutely nothing without it. Diddly squat. Dead in the water. Mine & yours included. The United States, big superpower and the most oil-hungry nation on the planet, definitely included. Our international status is gone without oil, & we, the people, are screwed without it too unless we can sustain ourselves without supermarkets, electricity, transportation, industry, modern medicine, scratch that, modern science, yadda yadda. And none of our governments are doing anything to prepare their respective countries or to ween themselves off the stuff, their energies entirely focussed on acquiring more. Britain has all but destroyed its agriculture, for instance, and depends on overseas transportation for a lot of its food. As for the US, the attitude of its leaders borders on suicidal:

'We need an energy bill that encourages consumption.' - George W. Bush. Clever George!

No, either we get smart and follow the example of countries like Cuba (not in terms of communism, per se, but in terms of how they dealt with the collapse of the Soviet Union and their subsequent cut off of oil supplies) or it's going to get increasingly violent and less diplomatic, I think. Although this may be primarily due to pessimism... I'd trust Freddy Krueger to babysit my cousins more than I trust politicians to handle the fate of the world.

[Smarmy Of One]

Remember that politicians are representatives of us. They are our voice, and in a democracy, it is supposed to be us who is handling the fate of the world.

The real issue is corporate interests taking control of the political process. Steps need to be taken to rid the world of lobbyists, not democracy.

The world would be a great place if the politicians represented who they are elected to represent instead of the corporations who pay for their election campaigns.

[Mister Joy]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing democracy at all, in and of itself. Democracy's great in that it means we get to choose the better of multiple evils. However, it doesn't eliminate the reality that those in power can and do manipulate the public with great ease, more often than not by lying through their teeth. The vast majority of the voters are either ignorant, indifferent or worse, mislead. Example: the government in my country attempted to cover up the fact that our oil had peaked from the public, most likely to keep the real agendas behind their actions (the partnership with the US, joining in with the Iraq invasion, the 'war on terror' etc.) harder for the public to discern at the time. I sure as hell didn't vote for the scum who run this country now and just because the majority did doesn't mean I have to trust or accept them myself. In fact, even if I had voted for them, this would not give me cause to stop being suspicious.

I could rephrase what I said earlier then as "I don't trust the public to vote for people who will handle this problem intelligently because I don't think they're clear headed. I don't think they're clear headed because they're rarely told the truth... and, let's face it, they're all thick ."

As for lobbyists and so on, it isn't such a big issue here as elsewhere because the UK is fairly socialist. the free market, at the moment, is under more restriction than at any time since World War II. I don't trust the state any more than I trust private sector drones though, mainly because I see the government as nothing but a particularly large and powerful company and the idea of a 'public sector', even in a democracy, to be of less significance than many people credit it with. It's just as governed by human error. Just because we vote for these guys it doesn't mean that they're our benefactors and it certainly doesn't mean they're going to put our interests before theirs, whether they're in the pockets of big businesses or not.

[jaymayo]

That great is still persisting still today. From the crusades to the settlement in Iraq. More blood will be shed under the name of God. Funny how it's always under the name of God and not humans. God has always been the scapegoat for atrocious actions. Depersonalizing inhumane acts to an invisible entity is always easy for a man's psychology. Historically, it has always been the case.

If we did our actions under the guidance of reason, there will be no bloodshed whatsoever. People will reason. But reason has not been enthroned yet to the masses. This makes me sad. Eventually in the future, religion will be rendered into myths and stories.

[Mister Joy]

Eventually in the future, religion will be rendered into myths and stories.

I wish I could agree with you there. Sadly, I don't share your optimism.  Religious irrationality has always governed the vast majority of the human race and I can't see that changing at any time in the future.

[jaymayo]

Well, didn't the greeks, norsemen, romans eventually change to christianity?

It is optimistic but by hypothesis, I think that the progression from polytheism to monotheism will occur once again in the form of monotheism to agnosticism. By that point, atheism will eventually come. We're here aren't we? Our visibility is gradually increasing. Our presence is a sure indicator that the transition will come somewhere near the future...

...have faith on one of human's greatest gifts, reason.

[filip3rd]

Humans have existed around 100 - 150 thousand years now and for the majority of the time they where Atheist. It is only for the past 3000 - 5000 years of it that human have worshiped some sort God, Gods. So it is not hard to believe that theism will be abolished however one must say belief may not but religious systems such as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism etc will be there is no question in it.

In regard of Democracy, democracy is not suitable for humanity. Humans are not capable to make the best judgment for the mass; on the individual level yes as workers but in mass and as one they can’t. There is a saying in my country, “tell 10 people to piss in one direction and you will end up with a wet circle”. Looking closer at our closes cousin in animal kingdom one can see that it is not a democratic but social structure. Socialism while is absolute enemy of greed can be the suitable system for humanity. However one characteristic that our cousins don’t have is greed. Humans are greedy and that is the root of the problems.  It was time when you could point at some government and say that the level of corruption is los but now days they are two different corruptions.

In USA the corruption is at a higher the people of the top are corrupt while in countries such as Brazil, Mexico the corruption also at the lower level the average Joe is corrupt too. However is possible to make a good man of the average Joe but the corruption in the government is way out of hand.

What is the solution? Anarchy that is the result of the Great War that I mentioned at first what will follow after it well I will not be alive to know. But after any major disaster always something  good emerges.

[Mister Joy]

Well, didn't the greeks, norsemen, romans eventually change to christianity?

It is optimistic but by hypothesis, I think that the progression from polytheism to monotheism will occur once again in the form of monotheism to agnosticism. By that point, atheism will eventually come. We're here aren't we? Our visibility is gradually increasing. Our presence is a sure indicator that the transition will come somewhere near the future...

...have faith on one of human's greatest gifts, reason.

Ok, optimistically, I could see the decline of theism as a trend towards zero. That's about as far as I can push it. I don't think monotheism is a step up, in terms of rationality, from polytheism.

Humans have existed around 100 - 150 thousand years now and for the majority of the time they where Atheist. It is only for the past 3000 - 5000 years of it that human have worshiped some sort God, Gods.

This is untrue. Pagan beliefs are pre-historic. You could say that it's only in the last 3000-5000 years that human beings have really started to document that kind of thing so astringently. We know astonishingly little about the cultures that preceded that era and because they were all comparatively minor and to themselves; no theist belief - if it was there - would be particularly wide-spread. Theistic beliefs, way back when, are also not all that irrational. You could also say that it's only in that era, as civilisations grew, that these theistic beliefs have come to be used so heavily to keep order and power, causing theistic belief to evolve over time to become far more domineering and much more of a key cultural facet. Greek and Roman God's, as an example, were not considered to be the soul or judges of human morality as the Christian God is; they were simply powerful being that needed to be appeased. More recent religious beliefs encompass both elements.

In regard of Democracy, democracy is not suitable for humanity. Humans are not capable to make the best judgment for the mass; on the individual level yes as workers but in mass and as one they can’t.

Human error and incompetence is always there becomes far more of a problem with non-democratic states... The whole point of a democracy, simplistically, is to try and lessen the potential impacts that human error could have by keeping each other in check.

Looking closer at our closes cousin in animal kingdom one can see that it is not a democratic but social structure.

And who's done better for themselves? Us or them?

I'll answer the rest later. For now, I've just been invited down the pub. Tara.

[jaymayo]

For now, I've just been invited down the pub.

What's the drinking age in England? Man... I wish I was there when I was 18. Then again, I started drinking at the age of 13 with my bro. In some way, I have a little of Irish in me (my fave color is green, born on Mar 17 and drinks like a f00kin irishman!) eventhough I'm asian.

But I digress... sorry, off topic.