Abortion Opinions

[Ali]

I'm completely flummoxed by this thread.  You bring up the topic of abortion, which I'm sure you knew would be controversial.  You indicated that this thread was not really for debate, but then immediately began debating people.  Then you tried to dictate the rules of the conversation; you don't want more than 5 replies, people should reply to only you and not to each other, and now that you have seen that no one else really agrees with you, you want to stop talking about it. 

[Sweetdeath]

I'm completely flummoxed by this thread.  You bring up the topic of abortion, which I'm sure you knew would be controversial.  You indicated that this thread was not really for debate, but then immediately began debating people.  Then you tried to dictate the rules of the conversation; you don't want more than 5 replies, people should reply to only you and not to each other, and now that you have seen that no one else really agrees with you, you want to stop talking about it. 

is this guy new to forums?

[En_Route]

Hehehehehehehehe  *Pokes Stevil in the ribs*  Look over there, Stevil!  What is that?  Better go investigate.....

I'll try my darndest not to get into a morality debate here, I understand we are all sick of my endless rants (me included)

Steady up man! You and I are entitled to bang on about the myth of morality as much as anybody else is entitled about the myth of theism (which of course we also bang on about as well). One day they will listen! Mark my words.

I listen. And I agreed with everything Stevil said as much on the 47th occasion that I did on the first...

It's known as reinforcement, an invaluable pedagogic technique.

[Dobermonster]

That's it? Really? I'm disappointed. Anyone with greater stamina care to take up the pro-life stance so it can continue?

[Stevil]

Your summary suggested that my reason for "wrong" is based on emotional or philosophical reaction rather than reason, but I have done nothing other than compare abortion to already well-established ethics.

Your philosophical stance is that people ought not be deprived of their future.
You are having an emotional reaction indicated by "I don't believe that anything that can be considered morally reprehensible..."

Your "reason" is based on your asserted philosophy and your emotional reaction.

[Recusant]

OK folks. Five pages isn't too bad, and Wrath has (in very polite terms) said that he doesn't want to continue. I don't think cajoling him is going to do much good. Let him catch his breath, relax and get to know this place a little better. He did leave the door open to coming back to this topic at some point, after all.

Just take him at his word and leave it be for now, or talk amongst yourselves.

[technolud]

I'll try my darndest not to get into a morality debate here, I understand we are all sick of my endless rants (me included)

I'm not sick of the Stevil rants.

Nobody likes abortion.  But it may well be a necessary act in today's world.  Lack of new people to continue the species is no longer the problem. 

It is a tough call, but certainly no one is more qualified to make it then the mother.

[Amalthea]

I am pro-choice for many of the commonly mentioned reasons (supporting rape victims, no child should be forced into the world unwanted, ect.) and I fully advocate providing women legal and safe abortion options. Yet it saddens me to hear about women who use abortion as their only form of contraception, carrying out multiple abortions instead of using preventative birth control methods.  Late-term abortions also seem wrong. Even though I believe a person fully develops through nature/nurture, the thought of killing an ever more recognizable human being remains pretty personally upsetting.

[Tank]

As demonstrated in my introduction thread, a lot of people are interested in the abortion debate and my opinions on it, being a "pro-lifer".  

However, there are so many different directions in which a debate on abortion can go, that I'm also interested in hearing your opinions on the topic before any real debate. So, to be clear, this thread is not so much for debate as it is for people to express their opinions first.

Some of the important questions in the issue include:

• At what point is the fetus considered 'life'?
• If the fetus is not considered 'life', is the potentiality for it to become 'life' significant?
• Does the fact that the fetus is a burden on the mother give the mother the right to terminate it?
• Is abortion an issue that falls under the public domain or the mother's concern only?

I will follow this with a post of my opinions, and I look forward to all of yours.  

Edit: At the least, because this thread is for the sake of gathering opinions, do not question somebody else's without first posting your own.

At the OP, I have not read the whole thread at this point.

• Is abortion an issue that falls under the public domain or the mother's concern only?

The woman's concern only (the term mother is pejorative in this context as we are discussing a woman's choice about becoming a mother or not), which renders the rest of the discussion moot. If I were a woman I would not consider myself a self-determining free individual unless I had complete control over my own body and all things within it. After that it is down to the individual and their own world view as to what they do should they become pregnant. And that will be influenced on the circumstances of the pregnancy; both how it came about and the impact termination or birth would have on the woman in the future.

I am not pro-abortion. In my opinion every abortion is the result of some sort of failure. In an ideal world there would be no abortions or rape or forgetful women who miss their pill. But we don't live in an ideal world so abortion may be the course of last resort if we are to consider a woman a 'self-determining free individual'.

I would consider any person who feels they have the right to influence a society so that women are not self-determining free individuals has far too high an opinion of their own opinion. Because that person is not the one actually facing the choice. Only the woman facing the choice can fully comprehend her circumstances and thus make a truly informed decision. They are also the only person that will have to live with that choice.

Nobody should be forced to use their body for something they do not want to use it for; that goes equally for both men and women.

[OldGit]

I would consider any person who feels they have the right to influence a society so that women are not self-determining free individuals has far too high an opinion of their own opinion.

Quite.  And I say that no such opinions need be taken seriously if we know they are, at bottom, driven by religion.

[En_Route]

I am pro-choice for many of the commonly mentioned reasons (supporting rape victims, no child should be forced into the world unwanted, ect.) and I fully advocate providing women legal and safe abortion options. Yet it saddens me to hear about women who use abortion as their only form of contraception, carrying out multiple abortions instead of using preventative birth control methods.  Late-term abortions also seem wrong. Even though I believe a person fully develops through nature/nurture, the thought of killing an ever more recognizable human being remains pretty personally upsetting.

Like you, for reasons, I've already given, I would prefer to live in a society which was pro- choice ( though in fact I don't). I wouldn't distinguish between early and late-term abortions. I suspect that the difference in your attitude relies on an understandable emotional response, as the foetus begins to more fully resemble a newborn child. I think however to conflate what you find personally upsetting  with something being  "wrong" trespasses into the realm of irrationality which we here fondly like to imagine is the preserve of theists.

[cncracer]

Some of the important questions in the issue include:

•   At what point is the fetus considered 'life'?
In my view it is when it is breathing on its own.
•   If the fetus is not considered 'life', is the potentiality for it to become 'life' significant?
Not until it takes it first breath
•   Does the fact that the fetus is a burden on the mother give the mother the right to terminate it?
yes
•   Is abortion an issue that falls under the public domain or the mother's concern only?

It is the parent's choice only.





Edit: Added attribution of quote. - Tank

[En_Route]

Some of the important questions in the issue include:
•   At what point is the fetus considered 'life'?
In my view it is when it is breathing on its own.
•   If the fetus is not considered 'life', is the potentiality for it to become 'life' significant?
Not until it takes it first breath
•   Does the fact that the fetus is a burden on the mother give the mother the right to terminate it?
yes
•   Is abortion an issue that falls under the public domain or the mother's concern only?
It is the parent's choice only.

These are just a set of arbitrary assertions. They may be of interest to you, but I'm not sure what  weight you expect them to carry with anyone else.

[Ali]

I am pro-choice for many of the commonly mentioned reasons (supporting rape victims, no child should be forced into the world unwanted, ect.) and I fully advocate providing women legal and safe abortion options. Yet it saddens me to hear about women who use abortion as their only form of contraception, carrying out multiple abortions instead of using preventative birth control methods.  Late-term abortions also seem wrong. Even though I believe a person fully develops through nature/nurture, the thought of killing an ever more recognizable human being remains pretty personally upsetting.

I find it interesting that even those of us that are pro-choice always feel the need to put on the "I don't approve of using abortion as contraception" disclaimer.  I believe that this has been influenced by the arguments and myths put forth by the pro-life movement.  I have to think that the actual incidences of women who use abortion as a form of contraception is fairly low.  I can't imagine a sane woman who would choose to have an expensive and painful surgical procedure over and over again rather than using condoms or hormonal birth control.

[En_Route]

I am pro-choice for many of the commonly mentioned reasons (supporting rape victims, no child should be forced into the world unwanted, ect.) and I fully advocate providing women legal and safe abortion options. Yet it saddens me to hear about women who use abortion as their only form of contraception, carrying out multiple abortions instead of using preventative birth control methods.  Late-term abortions also seem wrong. Even though I believe a person fully develops through nature/nurture, the thought of killing an ever more recognizable human being remains pretty personally upsetting.

I find it interesting that even those of us that are pro-choice always feel the need to put on the "I don't approve of using abortion as contraception" disclaimer.  I believe that this has been influenced by the arguments and myths put forth by the pro-life movement.  I have to think that the actual incidences of women who use abortion as a form of contraception is fairly low.  I can't imagine a sane woman who would choose to have an expensive and painful surgical procedure over and over again rather than using condoms or hormonal birth control.

I think it's fair enough to be saddened that some women are  reckless , someimes repeatedly reckless, about becoming pregnant, if only because of the harmful effects they may suffer. Such women do exist and they are usually quite sane. But I can't see why, if you are fully pro- choice ,the motivation or circumstances of the woman having the abortion matters.