Lying to Children

[Dobermonster]

Someone (en-route maybe? I'm too lazy to check, sorry if I twist your words) said presenting Santa as reality is beneficial in that it provides a bit of distrust, giving the child the ability to discern fact and fiction.

I also feel like this isn't necessarily a lesson that children need to learn from their parents. There's a whole lot of treachery out there in the world and I know for a fact that wee man will be exposed to it. I'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.

Not a parent, but I imagine a good way to encourage inquiry and skepticism in children is to simply teach them to investigate things for themselves.

e.g. If they come home from school saying little Jimmy told them grass is green because its filled with thousands of tiny leprachauns, open a book on biology and read with them about chlorophyll. Ask them what qualities might make someone a good or bad source of information. Get them to think about methods of determining what is true and what isn't.

I was the epitomy of a curious child, and fortunately my parents encouraged me to question and research and find things out for myself. Thanks to that, I was able to overcome years of indoctrination.

[Sweetdeath]

Someone (en-route maybe? I'm too lazy to check, sorry if I twist your words) said presenting Santa as reality is beneficial in that it provides a bit of distrust, giving the child the ability to discern fact and fiction.

I also feel like this isn't necessarily a lesson that children need to learn from their parents. There's a whole lot of treachery out there in the world and I know for a fact that wee man will be exposed to it. I'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.

Yeah, people in this world lie, cheat, and scam.
As parents, why would you do the same to your children?

People who lie to their children deserve all the mistrust and bad behavior that come with their idiocy.

[Ali]

I feel like there should be a distinction made between lying to your children and playing with them.  I kind of see Santa as the latter. 

As another example, when we are driving to daycare, T often notices when you can still see the moon during the day. He and I make up stories about how the moon's mommy wants him to go to bed, but he doesn't want to.  I'm almost certain that I started this play (i.e. the first time T said "Why is the moon there?  I thought the moon only stayed out at night?" I think I said "Silly moon!  Doesn't he know he should be in bed?")  You could say I'm "lying" to him by not telling him the actual science behind why you can sometimes see the moon in the morning and making up stories about the Moon and his Mommy, but I've always just considered it to be light hearted play, in the understanding that when T is older, he will know that the moon isn't really a person, doesn't really "go to bed", doesn't have desires to stay awake, et cetera. 

I consider the whole Santa thing to be along the same lines; parents aren't trying to cheat or lie to their kids, they're just playing with them.

[Asmodean]

...And why not attempt to explain the actual science to him? It's far, FAR more fascinating than "The Moon has a mommy", although that phrase can certainly be used as a parallel in explaining it to someone that young.

[Ali]

...And why not attempt to explain the actual science to him? It's far, FAR more fascinating than "The Moon has a mommy", although that phrase can certainly be used as a parallel in explaining it to someone that young.

*Snicker* I think part of it is probably that I don't actually know the science behind it, and haven't yet bothered to look it up.    

But in truth, again, I was playing with him.  I like it when he uses his imagination to make up stories, and when I use my imagination to make up stories, we play off of each other.  Telling each other stories is a passtime that I greatly enjoy and value.

[Asmodean]

Sure, and that is a good way of passing time. However, is not religion, for example, pretty much basing one's view of reality on stories of poor factual quality?

In your case, you could have demonstrated seeing both the Moon and the Sun to him. Grab two apples, oranges, fists, Asmos or any other roundish appliances and hold one within his field of view and the other behind his head. Rotate until the first is obscured and the second is seen. In parallel, that is when you only see one celestial body. Now, alter the angles somewhat so that there is a time when both objects are in the field of view. There you go - the moon and the sun both visible.

Of course, the position of those is also relevant because the moon has to be rather well lit in order to be visible with a naked eye through the atmosphere, that is another story.

[Sweetdeath]

I suppose i just dont understand lying to children, even if you are doing a 'playful lie."

don't get me wrong, i am a damn fun person. I mean, i RP, LARP, and cosplay. But for some reason, i do like to explain the truth and science to children rather than make something up.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I feel like there should be a distinction made between lying to your children and playing with them.  I kind of see Santa as the latter. 

As another example, when we are driving to daycare, T often notices when you can still see the moon during the day. He and I make up stories about how the moon's mommy wants him to go to bed, but he doesn't want to.  I'm almost certain that I started this play (i.e. the first time T said "Why is the moon there?  I thought the moon only stayed out at night?" I think I said "Silly moon!  Doesn't he know he should be in bed?")  You could say I'm "lying" to him by not telling him the actual science behind why you can sometimes see the moon in the morning and making up stories about the Moon and his Mommy, but I've always just considered it to be light hearted play, in the understanding that when T is older, he will know that the moon isn't really a person, doesn't really "go to bed", doesn't have desires to stay awake, et cetera. 

I consider the whole Santa thing to be along the same lines; parents aren't trying to cheat or lie to their kids, they're just playing with them.

I think it depends on the matter of degree, though. With the moon thing, your son brought it up, it was a bit of fun, and he probably didn't think you were serious about a moon "bed time." But Santa isn't an invention of a child's healthy imagination, parents introduce it to them and some of them really insist that it's real. Like I said before, I don't go out of my way to be a total kill-joy all of the time, but the line between natural silly childhood fun and deliberate deception is something I think about (and it's not always a clear line, for sure).

I think part of reason I feel so strongly about it is because some parents really go to the extreme in keeping the illusion alive. It gets beyond a silly story for fun. I once worked with a woman who was in a total panic because she didn't know how to keep her 10-year old still believing in Santa. It got to the point where she was regularly "planting evidence", she had one of our co-workers forging notes on Santa's behalf and she was opening up her son's letters to Santa (which he specifically told her he didn't want her to read). The whole thing was a bit much and I kept wondering what it was all for?

[OldGit]

But in truth, again, I was playing with him.  I like it when he uses his imagination to make up stories, and when I use my imagination to make up stories, we play off of each other.  Telling each other stories is a passtime that I greatly enjoy and value.

This kind of game is huge fun, it bonds the parent and child together and stretches the kid's imagination.  There's no need to go anywhere near misinforming the kid or discouraging the application of logic.  I still tell my grandson that his ears will go purple if he doesn't eat his food - stuff like that - and he thinks it's a great joke.  He'll likely come back and tell me my nose has just fallen off.  He doesn't take it any more seriously than I do; it's not going to turn him into a Mormon or anything but it does make him love his silly grandpa.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I agree, silly is good 

[Sweetdeath]

I feel like there should be a distinction made between lying to your children and playing with them.  I kind of see Santa as the latter. 

As another example, when we are driving to daycare, T often notices when you can still see the moon during the day. He and I make up stories about how the moon's mommy wants him to go to bed, but he doesn't want to.  I'm almost certain that I started this play (i.e. the first time T said "Why is the moon there?  I thought the moon only stayed out at night?" I think I said "Silly moon!  Doesn't he know he should be in bed?")  You could say I'm "lying" to him by not telling him the actual science behind why you can sometimes see the moon in the morning and making up stories about the Moon and his Mommy, but I've always just considered it to be light hearted play, in the understanding that when T is older, he will know that the moon isn't really a person, doesn't really "go to bed", doesn't have desires to stay awake, et cetera. 

I consider the whole Santa thing to be along the same lines; parents aren't trying to cheat or lie to their kids, they're just playing with them.

I think it depends on the matter of degree, though. With the moon thing, your son brought it up, it was a bit of fun, and he probably didn't think you were serious about a moon "bed time." But Santa isn't an invention of a child's healthy imagination, parents introduce it to them and some of them really insist that it's real. Like I said before, I don't go out of my way to be a total kill-joy all of the time, but the line between natural silly childhood fun and deliberate deception is something I think about (and it's not always a clear line, for sure).

I think part of reason I feel so strongly about it is because some parents really go to the extreme in keeping the illusion alive. It gets beyond a silly story for fun. I once worked with a woman who was in a total panic because she didn't know how to keep her 10-year old still believing in Santa. It got to the point where she was regularly "planting evidence", she had one of our co-workers forging notes on Santa's behalf and she was opening up her son's letters to Santa (which he specifically told her he didn't want her to read). The whole thing was a bit much and I kept wondering what it was all for?

Your coworker is really fucking pathetic. The kind of parent i completely detest.

[Buddy]

I think Ali makes a fair point. I mean, she isn't forcing T to believe that the moon has a mother. Plus, even if she did explain the science of why the moon is still out in the day, he might not understand just yet. As he gets older, those stories could slowly morph into actual facts to explain things to him. I see no problem with Ali making stories with T to help him understand the world.

[Siz]

I suppose i just dont understand lying to children, even if you are doing a 'playful lie."

don't get me wrong, i am a damn fun person. I mean, i RP, LARP, and cosplay. But for some reason, i do like to explain the truth and science to children rather than make something up.

Do we think that the misery of finding out the moon doesn't have a mummy outweighs the FUN to be had by exploring the story that it does? The facts of science will always be there to be soaked-in when they're ready. The magic in the fun and wonder of make-believe only works if the factual truth is still a mystery. Once you have broken the spell with factual explanation you can never again enjoy the exploration together in the same wondrous way - and that's everyone's loss.

[En_Route]

I suppose i just dont understand lying to children, even if you are doing a 'playful lie."

don't get me wrong, i am a damn fun person. I mean, i RP, LARP, and cosplay. But for some reason, i do like to explain the truth and science to children rather than make something up.

Do we think that the misery of finding out the moon doesn't have a mummy outweighs the FUN to be had by exploring the story that it does? The facts of science will always be there to be soaked-in when they're ready. The magic in the fun and wonder of make-believe only works if the factual truth is still a mystery. Once you have broken the spell with factual explanation you can never again enjoy the exploration together in the same wondrous way - and that's everyone's loss.

I'm with you on this. Kids are not merely smaller versions of adults and treating them as if they were is a category mistake which  leads to a kind of po- faced political correctness which is entirely misconceived. I would also add that lying even to adults is not  necessarily detrimental to their well being.

[Asmodean]

I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.

There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.

If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.