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Lying to Children

Started by Crow, July 04, 2012, 01:59:13 AM

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Asmodean

Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 04, 2012, 08:26:06 AM
I have to agree that it does little if any harm to let them believe in Santa etc.
Well, I hold every lie my parents told me against them. Every single one, no matter how harmless. And combined, they make for a very impressive grudge.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

En_Route

Quote from: Asmodean on July 04, 2012, 01:15:13 PM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 04, 2012, 08:26:06 AM
I have to agree that it does little if any harm to let them believe in Santa etc.
Well, I hold every lie my parents told me against them. Every single one, no matter how harmless. And combined, they make for a very impressive grudge.


Your parents clearly have a case to answer.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

DeterminedJuliet

Personally, I never remember believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny and I'm glad that I didn't. 

I really do think that even young children can discern the difference between "pretend" and real. I can remember being pretty little and understanding this difference. I have no problem with imagination, Winnie-the-Pooh is still one of my favourite books and I loved the Hobbit when I was a kid, but I still think there's a big difference between explicitly trying to mislead children and not. I don't think saying "Yes, 'playing fairies' is a lot of fun, even though they're pretend" ruins it for them. Most children accept "pretend" pretty well. Unlike adults, they don't need to believe that something is 100% true in reality to enjoy it. My childhood wasn't ruined by not believing in a real Santa. If anything, I felt bad for my peers when they were utterly devastated at the deception (which some of them were). As an adult atheist who was raised in Christianity and went through a difficult de-conversion process, I just can't willingly set up fake figures as real for my kid.   

Anyway, like I said, I know we're still probably the parenting minority on this, which is why I don't go around advertising this fact in real life. Most of the people I know who have kids the same age as my son have already started telling them "Ohhh Santa was here! Look what Santa left you!, etc." We haven't gone out of our way to say Santa's not real, but we don't really talk about him at Christmas, either (and wee man doesn't seem to suffer for it.)

When he gets older, I'll probably just explain that some kids believe in Santa and some kids don't, just like some kids believe in God and some kids don't.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: OldGit on July 04, 2012, 08:44:46 AM
More generally, we can't live with each other, adults or kids, without  quite a lot of lies as a social lubricant.

Kid: "Watch me, Mummy!  Look, Look, I can throw the ball!"

Parent: "That was pathetic.  Now I've got things to do, shut up."

Haha, I'm never mean to my kid!
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Asmodean

Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 01:29:26 PM
Your parents clearly have a case to answer.
They wouldn't if they came clean when confronted in stead of maintaining a lie or concocting a new one.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

I'm pretty blase about this topic.  We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter at our house anyway, so I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place, but my parents and society in general seem to have introduced T to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and I haven't really considered pulling him aside and saying "It's not true, you know."  It seems like a bit of harmless fun to me.  When he asks the "is Santa real?" question, I'll probably burst the bubble, but I just don't see any need to go out of my way to dash the Santa fun for him before he asks me.

Thinking of the "where do babies come from?" question, I know that T knows that babies grow in their mommies tummies, but I don't think we've yet discussed how they get out....

Asmodean

Quote from: Ali on July 04, 2012, 02:47:01 PM
but I don't think we've yet discussed how they get out....
Mommy gets good drugs, then a nice doctor with a weird beard sticks his hands between her legs, then there is wailing and gnashing of teeth and then, from mommy's vagina comes the baby... Sort of like piss. Only with drugs... And Doctor Weirdbeard... And pain and stretch marks.

The Asmo, he ought to write children's books, yes?  :D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

En_Route

Quote from: Asmodean on July 04, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 01:29:26 PM
Your parents clearly have a case to answer.
They wouldn't if they came clean when confronted in stead of maintaining a lie or concocting a new one.

I am not so sure.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

DeterminedJuliet

#23
I should also add that I don't go out of my way to be a total kill joy. For instance -- right now our son has a little fuzzy duck that he loves dearly. I'm sure he thinks that fuzzy duck loves him too, and I don't go out of my way to say "you know, fuzzy duck is just a stuffed animal and can't feel feelings. He doesn't love you." When he hugs his duck, I just say "awww, fuzzy duck. It's nice to be gentle and show love." But I also wouldn't go out of my way to say "Oh, fuzzy duck got up in the middle of the night and had this big adventure while you were asleep! Look! he left you all of these presents!" Maybe some parents would, but I wouldn't.

Like Ali, I'll probably just leave the Santa thing be until he asks me.

Also, Asmo, yes, you should totally write kids books. With disapproving Asmo faces on every page.  :D Write a SANTA'S NOT REAL book and I'll read it to my son every Christmas.  :P
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Asmodean

#24
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 03:00:16 PM
I am not so sure.
Because they are sort of family and, apparently, that is supposed to mean something, I do not hold grudges when the grudge-inducing cases are closed after the first warning.

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 04, 2012, 03:06:07 PM
Also, Asmo, yes, you should totally write kids books. With disapproving Asmo faces on every page.  :D
Also, make some nasty Asmo-shaped lollipops and put them in one of those rattly plastic bags and pack the whole thing in clear plastic so the potential customers can not sneak-read it before paying.  8)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 04, 2012, 03:06:07 PM
I should also add that I don't go out of my way to be a total kill joy. For instance -- right now our son has a little fuzzy duck that he loves dearly. I'm sure he thinks that fuzzy duck loves him too, and I don't go out of my way to say "you know, fuzzy duck is just a stuffed animal and can't feel feelings. He doesn't love you." When he hugs his duck, I just say "awww, fuzzy duck. It's nice to be gentle and show love." But I also wouldn't go out of my way to say "Oh, fuzzy duck got up in the middle of the night and had this big adventure while you were asleep! Look! he left you all of these presents!" Maybe some parents would, but I wouldn't.

Like Ali, I'll probably just leave the Santa thing be until he asks me.

Also, Asmo, yes, you should totally write kids books. With disapproving Asmo faces on every page.  :D Write a SANTA'S NOT REAL book and I'll read it to my son every Christmas.  :P

That reminds me!  Have you guys seen those creepy "Elf on the Shelf" toys that were all the rage the past couple of Christmases?  Basically it's this elf doll, and the parents set it out somewhere where it can "watch" the kids so it can tell Santa if they are good or not.  Already kind of creepy IMO.  But then, parents will, like, move it around and pose it at night when the kids are asleep, and then pretend that the Elf is alive and running amok while the kids aren't looking. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rtFsjncd7c&feature=related

Terrifying!

Asmodean

Quote from: Ali on July 04, 2012, 03:41:48 PM
Terrifying!
The Tiny Asmo would have looked at its face with a typical Asmo-expression, poked it in the eye, decided "Dislike", gotten even more Asmo-like in expression and... Ripped its head off.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

Haha, I need a Tiny Asmo on the Shelf to protect us from satanic dolls.

Dobermonster

The whole 'Santa' thing is fairly harmless, I agree, and I wouldn't bash a parent for playing out the charade. For myself (and granted, this may change if I ever decide to procreate), I see it as being used in a way not unlike the 'God' story: "If you keep putting your sister into the dust bin, Santa won't bring you anything nice for Christmas - he's always watching, you know." I've heard both stories of kids being horribly disillusioned when they realize that Santa isn't real, as well as those that just sort of 'grew out' of it. Those two things make me shy away from playing along. Maybe it has something to do with being almost compulsively honest, don't know.

En_Route

It should not be overlooked that this also represents a valuable opportunity to earn additional  income for overweight males.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).