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Why Are There Gay Men?

Started by AnimatedDirt, June 12, 2012, 09:44:22 PM

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En_Route

Quote from: Stevil on July 16, 2012, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 16, 2012, 08:54:05 PM
Stevil, I kind of think it has to be some sort of natural selection or subconscious thing (like Tank was talking about, where a symetrical face is more pleasing because it signifies good healthy genes.)  Otherwise, why is anything attractive at all?  Like, why would we find one trait (let's say a straight nose) more attractive than another (let's say a hooked nose.)  It seems totally arbitrary if it isn't somehow built into our genes.
But on a personal level. Conscious level.
What is it that you want to do to a beautiful person, but not necessarily what you want to do to other beautiful things (like a new pair of shoes)

We have sexual desires don't we? Can you not admit that superficially we want to have sex with beautiful people? (even if it is just an urge). I know when we go that step further into reality we assess other things as well e.g. personality, career, wealth...

But if we tend towards beautiful then they have an advantage, they get more opportunity with regards to people breaking the ice and getting to know them.

Yes, I'll grant that most of us harbour  sexual desires. I don't agree that we are necessarily turned on the most by classically good- looking members of the gender or genders to which we are sexually drawn. There is a vibe that attracts you, in which  appearance will play a part but which for most people will not be the sole determinant. That tends to be more pronounced with women who are sexually attracted towards a gamut of qualities,  I  also know some femmes fatales who are by no means exceptional in terms of their physical allure but command instant male attention when they flounce into the room.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

En_Route

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 16, 2012, 09:16:38 PM
Quote from: Stevil on July 16, 2012, 09:11:42 PM
But if we tend towards beautiful then they have an advantage, they get more opportunity with regards to people breaking the ice and getting to know them.

I think it's a pretty well documented fact that attractive people get treated better and have more advantages than non-attractive people in many areas of life. It's not fair, and I certainly try to treat everyone the same when I should, but it is true.

It's not all upside you know. I was perpetually  haunted by the fear that women just wanted me for my body.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

Asmodean

Quote from: Ali on July 16, 2012, 09:02:52 PM
Repulsive is an adjective that goes much deeper than merely "ugly."  "Ugly" simply means "not physically attractive."  "Repulsive" is something that makes your skin crawl, or disgusts you.  I've seen plenty of unattractive people in my 32 years, but very few of them have actually made my skin crawl.
I define repulsive as "something that repulses", from "repulse" as in akin to "repel". My definition is far less emotionally laden than the one you propose, and means little beyond that I more or less have to be forced to have a close personal relationship with someone I find ugly.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

Quote from: Asmodean on July 16, 2012, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 16, 2012, 09:02:52 PM
Repulsive is an adjective that goes much deeper than merely "ugly."  "Ugly" simply means "not physically attractive."  "Repulsive" is something that makes your skin crawl, or disgusts you.  I've seen plenty of unattractive people in my 32 years, but very few of them have actually made my skin crawl.
I define repulsive as "something that repulses", from "repulse" as in akin to "repel". My definition is far less emotionally laden than the one you propose, and means little beyond that I more or less have to be forced to have a close personal relationship with someone I find ugly.

Even as friends?

Asmodean

Of course. How could a -5 on a 1-10 pretty-scale become my friend in the first place?

Oh, I can have respect for that person's work, intellect or whatever, but a close personal relationship..? No.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

.....Then I can't see how my definition of repulsive is any more emotionally laden than yours. 

When I like someone (as in, enjoy their personality) they become more attractive in my eyes.  But it doesn't matter, because why would you "need" to find your friend attractive? 

Asmodean

Your definition of repulsive invokes a "Yuck!"-reaction. My definition does not.

I do not need to find my friends attractive - average will do. What will not do, however, is someone who looks like shit to such a degree that I have absolutely no interest in hanging out or having any face to face communication with them.

I do dig deeper than skin, but to use a parallel: would you dive into the ocean if its surface was covered in five centimeters of excrement, no matter how pristine the waters below? Me, I'm finicky that way.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ali

Are we talking about excrement that is self imposed (for example, someone who has chronically greasy stringy hair because they don't bathe often enough) or excrement that is the chance result of genetics (for example, an unfortunate nose)?  I agree that I don't typically want to spend time with someone who can't be bothered to care for their basic hygene needs (clean body, clean hair, clean teeth, and clean clothes) but it wouldn't bother me to be friends with someone who just happens to have unfortunate features.  Obviously there are different things that can be done with hair, flattering clothing, make up, et cetera, but when it comes right down to it, aren't pleasing facial features (or the lack there of) kind of just the luck of the draw?  I mean, I know I for one, did not choose to be graced with the face of an angel, it's just a happy coincidence.*  ;D





*In case it's not obvious, I'm totally joking.

Asmodean

Whatever the excrement is, I'm not free-diving through it.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Ali on July 16, 2012, 04:28:21 PM
I think it's interesting that Stevil concludes that we look for "pretty" because pretty = great sex.  Is that everyone else's experience, that pretty = great sex?  Maybe I'm not that visual, but give me "funny" and "eager to please" over pretty any day of the week.  ;D

Are we talking here-and-now in the conscious, or in the over the process of evolution sub-conscious?  If the latter and pretty was a marker for healthy, then yeah, I can see the better than average sex and it's outcome (healthier kids) creating a lasting assumption.

If it's the conscious here-and-now stuff that gets added on to that, I'd have to say no to the pretty = good sex.  In fact, too often I've heard that pretty people end up resting on their physical laurels and being unimaginative and lazy about sex. 

Or so I've heard.  Frankly I'm usually too intimidated by really pretty people to get that familiar with them.  In any case my biggest turn on is someone who can make me laugh, I can be an absolute whore for funny.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on July 17, 2012, 01:22:20 AM
If it's the conscious here-and-now stuff that gets added on to that, I'd have to say no to the pretty = good sex.  In fact, too often I've heard that pretty people end up resting on their physical laurels and being unimaginative and lazy about sex. 

Or so I've heard.  Frankly I'm usually too intimidated by really pretty people to get that familiar with them.  In any case my biggest turn on is someone who can make me laugh, I can be an absolute whore for funny.

"whore for funny"... I like that.
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Stevil on July 16, 2012, 08:18:20 PM
I am only suggesting that we tend to go for beauty because we assume it leads to great sex.
I don't think we do it for advantageous offspring, when I picked my partner I certainly wasn't considering what my kids would look like.

But again, are we talking about something evolution hard-wired into our subconscious, or something else that's part of our conscious personality and preferences?  Because I think both are at play when we're attracted to someone.

I know I have a definite type -- I like men who look like Keith Carradine and women who look like my girlfriend (short, curvy and giggly).  Altho I can't say I'd assume good sex based on that alone, it would just make me think "hmmm, not bad" about them.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Sandra Craft

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 17, 2012, 01:28:09 AM

"whore for funny"... I like that.


All things being equal, if you can make me laugh you can have me.  For awhile.  It's not dignified, but there it is.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

technolud

Quote from: asmodeanOf course. How could a -5 on a 1-10 pretty-scale become my friend in the first place?

Oh, I can have respect for that person's work, intellect or whatever, but a close personal relationship..? No.

You mean this?  Or your leg pulling?

Asmodean

Quote from: technolud on July 17, 2012, 02:48:23 AM
Quote from: asmodeanOf course. How could a -5 on a 1-10 pretty-scale become my friend in the first place?

Oh, I can have respect for that person's work, intellect or whatever, but a close personal relationship..? No.

You mean this?  Or your leg pulling?
Of course I mean it. Why wouldn't I?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.