Author Topic: Salutations, Godless Ones  (Read 8280 times)

Stevil

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2012, 10:19:55 PM »
But am I right in saying

When Jesus was around, there was no great following.
Christianity grew through political power and might, through colonisation and conquering of other nations.

Christians are driven to spread the disease of the Christian faith, so they smuggle bibles into China, they go to third world countries under the guise of charity and they pass out bibles, they preach and they spread fear and guilt until people submit (especially the poor and the uneducated)

Sweetdeath

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2012, 11:22:05 PM »
But am I right in saying

When Jesus was around, there was no great following.
Christianity grew through political power and might, through colonisation and conquering of other nations.

Christians are driven to spread the disease of the Christian faith, so they smuggle bibles into China, they go to third world countries under the guise of charity and they pass out bibles, they preach and they spread fear and guilt until people submit (especially the poor and the uneducated)

Yeah, instead of actually helping educate people of these poor areas, they throw a bible at them and say jesus loves them.  :(


Nothing creepier to me when  i was watching a japanese drama and there was a church and japanese preists. Like...ugggh, so creepy. Catholics and christian stuff in Japan freaks me out.
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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2012, 11:44:12 PM »
But am I right in saying

When Jesus was around, there was no great following.
Christianity grew through political power and might, through colonisation and conquering of other nations.

Christians are driven to spread the disease of the Christian faith, so they smuggle bibles into China, they go to third world countries under the guise of charity and they pass out bibles, they preach and they spread fear and guilt until people submit (especially the poor and the uneducated)

Yeah, instead of actually helping educate people of these poor areas, they throw a bible at them and say jesus loves them.  :(


Eh... in all fairness, I don't think that's ALL they do. A lot of Christian services set up schools (which, true, are religious based, but they still do teach literacy, etc). They also give people the resources to grow crops, or put in wells for clean drinking water. Sometimes they help build houses or schools or sometimes they bring doctors down to give out some free health care. Sure, they're doing it in the name of Jesus. And sure, they may be giving out bibles printed in the local languages.

But I know that some good DOES get done, and after the missionary work is done, I'm not entirely sure the people who were preached to are WORSE off than they were before. I can't think of a particular charity (Compassion? World Vision?) who deliberately spread fear and guilt until people submit. The message at least THOSE two charities give people does NOT focus on hell, or at least did not focus on it when I volunteered for them. It's more a watered down, farm fuzzy, Jesus loves you message.

For what it's worth.


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Stevil

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #78 on: March 29, 2012, 11:54:11 PM »
I can't think of a particular charity (Compassion? World Vision?) who deliberately spread fear and guilt until people submit. The message at least THOSE two charities give people does NOT focus on hell, or at least did not focus on it when I volunteered for them. It's more a watered down, farm fuzzy, Jesus loves you message.

For what it's worth.
But isn't Christianity about the death of Jesus, payment for our sins (guilt) and salvation from death or hell (fear), and hence providing eternal life (fear).
Do they teach that sex out of marriage is a sin (guilt/fear) or that masturbation is a sin (guilt/fear) or that homosexuality is a sin (guilt/fear) that non belief is a sin (guilt/fear).

I understand that they might deliver the message in a nice and friendly way and that they offer several benefits, leaving the people better off, but they can't, they simply flat out refuse to offer help without evangalising. It is the Christian way, is it not. This is how Christianity spreads, it is not because it is the Truth or that there is some divine influence causing it to be growing and spreading.

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2012, 01:12:49 AM »
I believe that he was probably a historical figure. Probably a rabbi who began an offshoot sect of Judaism, and he was only one of several doing that. He probably BELIEVED he had a message from God. There were a LOT of Jewish 'prophets', people who believed themselves to be a messiah figure. The Romans would have probably seen him as just one more of those, as a nuisance at best, as a criminal at worst, if they saw massive crowds of people converting to a new religion on the say-so of one man. Even if he wasn't a historical figure, then that leaves the question "why did Christianity start up when it did?" Who started it? Who organized it? Why? If Jesus was just the archetype of the movement, who or what got it actually rolling if he didn't? Interesting questions, but perhaps we should take them into a new thread about why non-theists think Jesus was...
There may have been a historical character upon which lots of mythology was heaped at a later date, but Jesus may also have been a mythological figure who the Church later tried to historicise. I think there are plenty of other likely explanations for why Christianity might have started. Many of its central ideas and teachings are more similar to classical and Hellenistic Greek philosophy and religion and philosophy than to second temple Judaism, plus all the earliest Christian writings are in Greek.

Even the name 'Jesus' is a Greek version of the Hebrew name for 'Yahweh saves', which would be the perfect name for a made-up saviour of Yahweh. It's also a deliberately contrived magical name, if you add up the numbers of the Greek letters in the name Ἰησοῦς/Jesus (all Greek letters were also numbers), they equal 888, a magical number like 666. We know that plenty of Jews of the period were very Hellenised and spoke Greek as a first language, and read Plato and other philosophers. Christianity could have been started by Hellenised Jews who wanted to update Judaism and free it of the restrictive old laws and create a new form of Judaism closer to Greek philosophy and the mystery religions, which would be more appealing to both Hellenised Jews and potential new converts in the Roman world.

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2012, 04:58:59 AM »
But am I right in saying

When Jesus was around, there was no great following.
Christianity grew through political power and might, through colonisation and conquering of other nations.

Christians are driven to spread the disease of the Christian faith, so they smuggle bibles into China, they go to third world countries under the guise of charity and they pass out bibles, they preach and they spread fear and guilt until people submit (especially the poor and the uneducated)

Yeah, instead of actually helping educate people of these poor areas, they throw a bible at them and say jesus loves them.  :(


Eh... in all fairness, I don't think that's ALL they do. A lot of Christian services set up schools (which, true, are religious based, but they still do teach literacy, etc). They also give people the resources to grow crops, or put in wells for clean drinking water. Sometimes they help build houses or schools or sometimes they bring doctors down to give out some free health care. Sure, they're doing it in the name of Jesus. And sure, they may be giving out bibles printed in the local languages.

But I know that some good DOES get done, and after the missionary work is done, I'm not entirely sure the people who were preached to are WORSE off than they were before. I can't think of a particular charity (Compassion? World Vision?) who deliberately spread fear and guilt until people submit. The message at least THOSE two charities give people does NOT focus on hell, or at least did not focus on it when I volunteered for them. It's more a watered down, farm fuzzy, Jesus loves you message.

For what it's worth.


What Stevil said. I actually know someone who is friends with a Japanese missionary. His world views are seriously skewered!!


And no, they arent helping these places. All they do is spread "the word of christ". No real education; unless it is about magical sky daddy.   No  sex ed; even though these people really need it.
Shouldnt the people in Africa be informed more about condom use ?

These people just wave their shiny roseries and plop down a translated bible.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

“I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn’t mend our wounds.

Amicale

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2012, 06:15:57 AM »
What Stevil said. I actually know someone who is friends with a Japanese missionary. His world views are seriously skewered!!


And no, they arent helping these places. All they do is spread "the word of christ". No real education; unless it is about magical sky daddy.   No  sex ed; even though these people really need it.
Shouldnt the people in Africa be informed more about condom use ?

These people just wave their shiny roseries and plop down a translated bible.


Sigh. SD, I hope you know how much I like ya girl, but ease up on the over-generalizing, would ya?  :P

It would be a problem if people were being forced into religion through fear, brainwashed into believing in Christ, refused food/help/education if they didn't believe. And yes, I absolutely agree that it's a huge CRISIS that condoms and chemical birth control isn't wide spread where it needs to be.

That being said, here's where I think things are being over-generalized: Compassion's a decent organization. I volunteered with them for the better part of a year. I know World Vision even better, having had a long multi-year background with them, including volunteering for a good long while. When I volunteered, here's what I did (with a group, when we went over):
- helped with a well project so people could drink clean, safe water near a school area that was being built
- helped get a school built there
- donated school supplies to the students
- played games with the kids and gave them LOTS of hugs, which they loved
- made crafts with them, met their families
- Started to teach a few of them some common English words - hello, goodbye, love, sun, rain, etc.
- Reviewed a copy of their school curriculum in English, which included math, agriculture, English language, geography (their own), physical education, and oddly enough, NOT a mandatory religion class. It looked pretty solid to me, given the place, the age/grade, and their background. Let it be noted that it's World Vision's stance that children live in a specific culture and generally have their own religious background, which should be respected.

What I'm trying to say here is that a lot of good was done. It wasn't about waving shiny rosaries or plopping down translated bibles, although bibles were available for the kids who wanted one. Very few took one. Hugs, food, water, games and laughter meant more to them, and to me.




« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 06:19:15 AM by Amicale »


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applesauce

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2012, 05:14:39 PM »
I've only read the first post and didn't have time to read all the replies, but I can definitely relate to feeling Catholic culturally.

SweetLaura286

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2012, 01:55:27 PM »
Interesting intro, thank you for sharing about yourself with us!

Michael Reilly

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2018, 06:25:10 PM »
Hello again. I introduced myself six years ago (hard to freaking believe). I was just reading back through the very pleasant comments people made welcoming me to this forum, which I have visited from time to time over the years.

It has taken me this long to rid myself of religion. It has been a struggle. It's like Al Pacinco says in Godfather III: "Every time I think I'm out, they suck me back in." I believe it was Richard Dawkins who first wrote about memes, and how some ideas are like a virus in the human mind. I can attest to that first hand. Once this shit is in your head, it's hard to dislodge.

I have been experiencing tremendous cognitive dissonance over the past five or six years. I would have long periods of belief, and religious practice, followed by brief bursts of atheism.  Over time, that ratio has flipped: now I keep my head screwed on straight most of time, but occasionally find myself in the God place again. Less and less.

Someone once described grief like a series of giant black waves crashing on top of you over and over again. As time goes by, the waves are still tall, but their frequency diminishes. Eventually, the waves get smaller, too. I think that's how I've felt about losing my belief in God: it's like grief.

I am posting here today because of an experience I had yesterday which reminded me of this forum (for reasons that will not be in the least bit apparent!) I live in the greater Boston (Massachusetts) area. My wife and I took our little girls--now ages 12 and 9--to the https://www.mos.org/Museum of Science, a fantastic place. We've been there before, but for whatever reason, this time it really, really engaged my girls...and us!  Afterwards, we went into Boston to see an art show highlighting the work of local students, where my older daughter's drawing was on full display. I then went home and watched the Oscars on the television.

In the middle of all this, we drove by a small but loud rally in front of Beacon Hill (the capital building for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts) in support of our President, Donald "Cheeto-Jesus" Trump.

All of this swirled together in my head last night. Science, art, film, and ignorance. I think I finally realized that what we do has human beings--our study of the universe, our creativity, our art and expression, is what truly matters. And: to see the forces of intolerance, bigotry, violence, and ignorance on full display, marching around and yelling...it all just clicked. There is no God. There is just us.

And it was like, a loud click. Maybe you heard it? I know a lot of you are in England, but if you heard a sudden click!, that was me!

Anyhow, sorry to go on so long. Happy to be back. Peace.

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2018, 06:46:53 PM »
Happy to see you here again! It sounds like a great day, and I expect the contrast between the earlier parts and the later observation of Trump supporters was informative for your daughters in its own way.  :sidesmile:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2018, 06:47:04 PM »
Wow, just wow. So glad you made it back.
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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2018, 07:02:26 PM »
Oh, wow, I joined like just a couple of weeks after you!

An actual rally for Trump? That would have made me sick to my stomach. Sorry you had to see that.

Glad things have "clicked" for you. I'm embarrassed to mention this... I've identified myself as an atheist for just over six years now, but I oftentimes feel the indoctrination wanting to tell me otherwise. It's odd because I was never a deep believer, I pretty much only got this "belief" in my head because my family and community had it and I trusted that they must have some reason for believing that I didn't. Despite wanting to believe, I never felt any spiritual experiences for myself, and never felt anything at church.

Yet, here, I, well over a decade since regularly having attended church, having consciously recognized what my "belief" was based on, and the indoctrination still gets to me sometimes. I know it's not rational, and I am so disgusted by the idea of the Christian God, so I am able to fight it off... But I definitely understand Atheists who are still afraid of Hell. Indoctrination is strong and hard to fight off, even once we've seen the light so-to-speak.

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Dave

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2018, 08:32:10 PM »
Hi, Michael, you were before my discovery and joining of this ungodly mob - of great people!

Sounds like you suffered a sort of reverse-Damascene moment there - a reality rush. Happy that you made the connections, I like your writing style!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 09:02:18 AM by Dave »
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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2018, 10:28:30 PM »
Hi Michael, I'm glad you came back! I can relate a little to your life. I was a deeply committed Christian for many years and I felt a panic as my faith was crumbling, and when the last straw hit me, and I could no longer believe from that moment, it was truly a grief reaction. I haven't been tempted to go back, not even once, that I can remember, but man, I understand the sadness.

May I ask how your wife feels about God?

And I wonder if you've read through the website, "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" It's a dorky title, but a fantastic website that really helped me put God behind me forever. 
Maybe you totally don't need that, but I still love the way it's laid out.

Anyway, welcome back  :grin:
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