Author Topic: Salutations, Godless Ones  (Read 3634 times)

DeterminedJuliet

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2012, 06:52:37 PM »
I always thought New England seemed like a lovely place.

My husband and I have a theory that Atlantic Canada and New England should get together and create their own country. It'd be a nice place, I think.
"We’ve thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you’re dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2012, 06:54:05 PM »
It's a fact that he existed; there are records independent of the Gospels (Josephus, Tacitus). The philosophy of Jesus is where I hang out. The whole coming back from the dead thing is a metaphor, in my opinion. Trouble is, six year olds don't do metaphors. We talk a lot about seasons, cycles, etc. Renewal, second chances. Things like that.


Michael Reilly

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2012, 06:55:00 PM »
 
Quote
always thought New England seemed like a lovely place.

My husband and I have a theory that Atlantic Canada and New England should get together and create their own country. It'd be a nice place, I think.


It's very nice here. You should come and visit! Especially in the fall.

DeterminedJuliet

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2012, 07:02:21 PM »
Quote
always thought New England seemed like a lovely place.

My husband and I have a theory that Atlantic Canada and New England should get together and create their own country. It'd be a nice place, I think.


It's very nice here. You should come and visit! Especially in the fall.

I've been to Maine and Massachusetts, but that's about it. Twas very pretty when I was through, though it was the middle of summer and it was bloody hot.
"We’ve thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you’re dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Michael Reilly

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2012, 07:07:04 PM »
Go and see Vermont, if you can. Lovely. You live in Canada? One of my best buddies is from Nova Scotia.

DeterminedJuliet

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2012, 07:08:15 PM »
Go and see Vermont, if you can. Lovely. You live in Canada? One of my best buddies is from Nova Scotia.

I was born in Nova Scotia and lived there until I was 13!  ;D Then Newfoundland. Now Ontario. I'm a bit of a nomad.
Vermont, eh? I'll have to add it to the list.
"We’ve thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you’re dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Michael Reilly

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2012, 07:09:39 PM »
I was there this past weekend. I saw a tee-shirt: What Happens in Vermont Stays in Vermont. But Nothing Happens in Vermont. 

Sounds good to me!  ;D

Amicale

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2012, 07:16:32 PM »
I always thought New England seemed like a lovely place.

My husband and I have a theory that Atlantic Canada and New England should get together and create their own country. It'd be a nice place, I think.

If this happened, I'd be moving there pronto. I've loved the east coast for as long as I can remember. The culture, the scenery, the weather (yes, even the insane storms), the water/boats/beaches... everything.  ;D

The people here seem really nice
But the winter's way too long
Her new friends don't understand
They just tell her to be strong
She made some decent money
Yeah, but nothing comes for free
The busy streets just don't compete
With the sky, the rocks and sea...

- Seagulls by Great Big Sea


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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2012, 08:32:37 PM »
Late to the party, but welcome Michael.  I'm looking forward to hearing your POV on the various topics we typically discuss here at HAF.  You sound like a stand-up kind of Christian, which are seemingly in short supply lately.
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Don't waste your time or time will waste you."
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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2012, 09:55:32 AM »
It's a fact that he existed; there are records independent of the Gospels (Josephus, Tacitus). The philosophy of Jesus is where I hang out. The whole coming back from the dead thing is a metaphor, in my opinion. Trouble is, six year olds don't do metaphors. We talk a lot about seasons, cycles, etc. Renewal, second chances. Things like that.
The passage in Josephus is first mentioned in the fourth century and is generally considered to be a later Christian interpolation and the Tacitus passage may be similar, it's first mentioned in 400 CE, but even if it's original it dates to 116 CE, sometime after Jesus' possible historical existence. Tacitus' passage is more about Christians than Jesus, he just says their name derives from Christus, who was put to death in the reign of Tiberius. Tacitus could have learned that little bit of knowledge from any Christian, I don't think it proves for a fact that Jesus existed. Personally, I think the whole story's allegory and metaphor, but that doesn't detract from the philosophy, even if Plato did say it all better and earlier.

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2012, 03:44:16 PM »
Tacitus could have learned that little bit of knowledge from any Christian, I don't think it proves for a fact that Jesus existed. Personally, I think the whole story's allegory and metaphor, but that doesn't detract from the philosophy, even if Plato did say it all better and earlier.

I've always thought it odd that the Romans, who made notes about everything, don't seem to have mentioned him at all, even in passing.  If something were found dating from Christ's supposed lifetime, written by a Roman in the right area, we'd have some real evidence and I think that would be even more exciting than evidence for the existence of a god.  I'm with you on Christ's questionable reality not detracting from the philosophy.
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Amicale

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2012, 04:08:14 PM »
Tacitus could have learned that little bit of knowledge from any Christian, I don't think it proves for a fact that Jesus existed. Personally, I think the whole story's allegory and metaphor, but that doesn't detract from the philosophy, even if Plato did say it all better and earlier.

I've always thought it odd that the Romans, who made notes about everything, don't seem to have mentioned him at all, even in passing.  If something were found dating from Christ's supposed lifetime, written by a Roman in the right area, we'd have some real evidence and I think that would be even more exciting than evidence for the existence of a god.  I'm with you on Christ's questionable reality not detracting from the philosophy.

I believe that he was probably a historical figure. Probably a rabbi who began an offshoot sect of Judaism, and he was only one of several doing that. He probably BELIEVED he had a message from God. There were a LOT of Jewish 'prophets', people who believed themselves to be a messiah figure. The Romans would have probably seen him as just one more of those, as a nuisance at best, as a criminal at worst, if they saw massive crowds of people converting to a new religion on the say-so of one man. Even if he wasn't a historical figure, then that leaves the question "why did Christianity start up when it did?" Who started it? Who organized it? Why? If Jesus was just the archetype of the movement, who or what got it actually rolling if he didn't? Interesting questions, but perhaps we should take them into a new thread about why non-theists think Jesus was...



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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »
Wasn't it Constantine who promoted it to be the "official" religion of Rome?
Presumably so he could more easily control the people

Amicale

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2012, 09:02:25 PM »
Wasn't it Constantine who promoted it to be the "official" religion of Rome?
Presumably so he could more easily control the people

His mother introduced it to him, although it's more likely he accepted it or found it useful in adulthood (early 40s), rather than being raised a Christian as some think he was. He didn't ask for baptism until shortly before he died, for instance. He saw that there was so much interest in Christianity and that it would be a useful tool for getting people on his side that first he made Christian worship legal, which gained him favour. He became a patron of the church, pouring money and resources as well as political support into it, but he didn't promote it to an official religion for a good while. The edicts of Milan and Toleration basically made Christianity acceptable in a wider way, but it wasn't until the edict of Thessalonica that Christianity became the state religion, and that was in the late 300's - 370 or 380, I think.


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"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

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Re: Salutations, Godless Ones
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2012, 09:27:27 PM »
Wasn't it Constantine who promoted it to be the "official" religion of Rome?
Presumably so he could more easily control the people

His mother introduced it to him, although it's more likely he accepted it or found it useful in adulthood (early 40s), rather than being raised a Christian as some think he was. He didn't ask for baptism until shortly before he died, for instance. He saw that there was so much interest in Christianity and that it would be a useful tool for getting people on his side that first he made Christian worship legal, which gained him favour. He became a patron of the church, pouring money and resources as well as political support into it, but he didn't promote it to an official religion for a good while. The edicts of Milan and Toleration basically made Christianity acceptable in a wider way, but it wasn't until the edict of Thessalonica that Christianity became the state religion, and that was in the late 300's - 370 or 380, I think.

What a smart fellow. This really is the easiest way to control the masses. It still is.
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