Author Topic: Slaves, Obey Your Masters  (Read 8765 times)

Asmodean

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2012, 03:42:43 PM »
put the bible as a fairytale...or fiction
Lacking any reason to assume the opposite, should that not be the default for any book?
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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2012, 03:50:11 PM »
put the bible as a fairytale...or fiction
Lacking any reason to assume the opposite, should that not be the default for any book?

Just keeping you happy, Asmo.

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2012, 04:07:19 PM »
Quote
You're not looking at this from the cultural setting, but I can't help that.  You're reading at face value and not a study.  I can see why you'd feel this way.

And this is why I need an annotated bible that clearly lists which parts you are supposed to adhere to and which parts can safely be ignored or taken as a "cultural study."  Which brings us full circle to the question I asked before, which is: how do you (You as in AD, and also you as in Christians in general) decide which parts are meant to tell you how to live your life and build your moral code, and which parts are just cultural studies? 

Asmodean

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2012, 04:28:15 PM »
put the bible as a fairytale...or fiction
Lacking any reason to assume the opposite, should that not be the default for any book?

Just keeping you happy, Asmo.
The Asmo's old car is more alive than it has been for a year or so, so I wouldn't worry about managing to displease His Grayness in the next few hours.  ;D
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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #79 on: March 16, 2012, 04:35:31 PM »
Quote
You're not looking at this from the cultural setting, but I can't help that.  You're reading at face value and not a study.  I can see why you'd feel this way.

And this is why I need an annotated bible that clearly lists which parts you are supposed to adhere to and which parts can safely be ignored or taken as a "cultural study."  Which brings us full circle to the question I asked before, which is: how do you (You as in AD, and also you as in Christians in general) decide which parts are meant to tell you how to live your life and build your moral code, and which parts are just cultural studies?

I think I clearly laid the basics out for you without the use of anything but the bible itself and one or two chapters of it.  I used one point from a bible commentary.

To your question on how we tell how to live our life and build our moral code...the moral code we follow is not following the lives of men.  Clearly what David did went against the law (Lev. 20:10, Deut. 22:22) so we Christians wouldn't be putting what you consider "rape" into our moral code...not to mention murder, nor would we be putting that law into practice today, but that's a whole other story and much deeper than this.
 

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2012, 04:41:05 PM »
All I can say is ponder the situation some.  Women are not all pure.  Bathsheba was a woman of high standing...living within eye-shot of the king?  Her husband in the military...?  She knew exactly what she was doing bathing within eye-shot of the king.  Is it that you would never think a married woman would want a man of power even if she was married to another?  Is that really a stretch?  I don't think so and the story confirms this.  David was king!  Could he not do whatever he wanted?  Why go through this whole charade to cover up.

Ahhh...
So the defence of David is that Bathsheba was a two-timing skank that enticed the king?
Sounds like a case of blaming the victim to me.

Actually, if you know anything about the female reproductive cycle, if she had just finished her period it's actually unlikely that it was David's baby.  Most women ovulate somewhere around cycle day 14, and most women finish their periods somewhere between cycle day 5-7.  But I digress.

Exactly right.  It wasn't a one-night stand, was it?

Quote from: Ali
And none of what your wrote explains how god means anything but "I'm going to have someone rape your wives in plain daylight where everyone can see" when he says "and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."

You're not looking at this from the cultural setting, but I can't help that.  You're reading at face value and not a study.  I can see why you'd feel this way.

This goes to show that God knows the future.  You may say God caused the future, but I would simply disagree.
If God knew that the women were going to be raped, why did he not intercede, or allow David to defend the women with his soldiers? Any way you slice it, God allows the rape to happen.


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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2012, 04:42:41 PM »
I can't convince you.  I can only present you the "facts".  (I only use quotes because most of *you put the bible as a fairytale...or fiction)
To be fair, this particular story about David and is most very likely fiction. The Books of Samuel were  written in the reign of Josiah, around 625 BCE, and David, if he ever lived, existed over 300 years earlier.

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2012, 04:55:43 PM »
Quote
You're not looking at this from the cultural setting, but I can't help that.  You're reading at face value and not a study.  I can see why you'd feel this way.

And this is why I need an annotated bible that clearly lists which parts you are supposed to adhere to and which parts can safely be ignored or taken as a "cultural study."  Which brings us full circle to the question I asked before, which is: how do you (You as in AD, and also you as in Christians in general) decide which parts are meant to tell you how to live your life and build your moral code, and which parts are just cultural studies?

I think I clearly laid the basics out for you without the use of anything but the bible itself and one or two chapters of it.  I used one point from a bible commentary.

To your question on how we tell how to live our life and build our moral code...the moral code we follow is not following the lives of men.  Clearly what David did went against the law (Lev. 20:10, Deut. 22:22) so we Christians wouldn't be putting what you consider "rape" into our moral code...not to mention murder, nor would we be putting that law into practice today, but that's a whole other story and much deeper than this.
 

Okay, but in the story, god says that the appropriate revenge is that David's wives are to be raped in his sight, which kind of implies that God condones rape or at elast isn't above using rape to get back at someone.  So how does God's expressed attitudes towards rape not find it's way into your moral code.  Which, actually, given the fact that you don't seem to think that sleeping with a woman who has no choice in the matter is not rape, and that the woman is to blame for "asking for it" I think maybe it did. 

Truthseeker

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2012, 05:07:05 PM »
Quote from: Ali
  Which, actually, given the fact that you don't seem to think that sleeping with a woman who has no choice in the matter is not rape, and that the woman is to blame for "asking for it" I think maybe it did. 

Damnnnnn!!  That is going to leave a mark. 

BTW.  My absense from this thread should not be framed as not interested.  I have my popcorn ready and have been enjoying every minute of this!
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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2012, 05:34:16 PM »
Okay, but in the story, god says that the appropriate revenge is that David's wives are to be raped in his sight, which kind of implies that God condones rape or at elast isn't above using rape to get back at someone.  So how does God's expressed attitudes towards rape not find it's way into your moral code.  Which, actually, given the fact that you don't seem to think that sleeping with a woman who has no choice in the matter is not rape, and that the woman is to blame for "asking for it" I think maybe it did.

To lie with/ sleep with (non-rape): 'im shakhabh

To rape: ve- chazaq 'im shakhabh

See Deut. 22:25, 28.  The word "rape" does not occur in the bible (according to the NIV trans).  "rapes" occurs twice.  Both times it is specifically as shown above.

Compare with 2 Samuel 12:11

Like I said, I can't make you change your mind nor am I necessarily trying.
I'm simply presenting you with more info.  You make the call.

Guardian85

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2012, 05:40:11 PM »
And if you lie with a woman who has not given her concent, we call it...? Come on, AD, you know this!



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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2012, 05:44:01 PM »
Quote from: Guardian85
Come on, AD, you know this!

Almost verbatim what I posted on page four. 
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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2012, 05:58:26 PM »
And if you lie with a woman who has not given her concent, we call it...? Come on, AD, you know this!



I think sometimes, people get this idea in their heads that rape has to be a violent, aggressive attack in a dark park, field, or alleyway. Not the case. Rape is quite simply defined as having sex with someone who has not given, or is not able to give, their full consent free of coercion. Rape isn't always this dramatic scene, complete with violence and screaming and fighting. It can be, and often is, an entirely quiet affair filled with fear, with worry, with guilt, with a sense of the complete loss of control. Rape is the act of taking power away from someone in a sexual way. It's making them submit to you, when they don't want to, when they haven't given their consent.

Sure, something in a piece of literature, in the news, or in a personal shared account might not be described exactly as the 'classic' rape scenario that most people would expect. That doesn't mean a rape hasn't happened.


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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2012, 05:58:40 PM »
And if you lie with a woman who has not given her concent, we call it...? Come on, AD, you know this!

Are we talking about today's society or the society/culture of a couple thousand or more years ago?

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2012, 06:01:12 PM »
Are you serious? Has the word and meaning of rape EVER changed in 2000 years?
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