Author Topic: Slaves, Obey Your Masters  (Read 8738 times)

DeterminedJuliet

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2012, 12:18:36 AM »
AD, if it wasn't the bible and was just any other piece of ancient literature, how would you read those passages? Honestly, now.
"We’ve thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you’re dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sandra Craft

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2012, 01:18:16 AM »
You're inserting your own bias...something that is not there.  The commentary on this passage is:

Quote
While the troops killed the men of Midian, they spared the women and children as plunder. Moses commanded that only the virgin women (who were thus innocent of the indecencies at Peor) could be spared; the guilty women and the boys (who might endanger the inheritance rights of Israelite men) were to be put to death.

No where does it say these were raped as directed by God.  In fact the word it uses is, "innocent" and "spared".

1.  It's the bolded that really stands out for me, since "innocent" and "spared" really aren't meaningful -- "innocent" apparently means unable to screw with inheritance rights and "spared" means turned into plunder.

2.  It's always been interesting to me that the god who has so much to say point blank on some issues that just aren't as important can't say "don't rape anyone" or be clearer on the "do as you will with them" idea.  Why not delay judgement in not honoring your parents instead of delaying judgement on committing rape?  Could this possibly be less god-like and more human?
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Amicale

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2012, 01:33:10 AM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt
And yet the fact remains, no where does God call his people to rape.  Maybe you see the delay in judgment as condoning.  But if the book is correct and God is, the end is yet to come and judgment will come.  God's ways, if he is, will be known.

Actually, he does. In fact, he says he'll allow rape to happen.

2 Samuel 12:7-12.

Quote
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’”

1. God gives David several things, including his 'master's wives' into his keeping. If we're generous, we can say he was maybe just supposed to look after them and treat them nicely. Okay.
2. David messed up by killing Uriah, he took Uriah's wife to be his wife... which of course wasn't consensual; it would have been forced, which meant she would have been forced to sleep with him. If you think that's not the case, ask yourself if she could have said NO to being his wife.
3. Because David killed Uriah and took Uriah's wife, God responds by taking their wives and giving them to their neighbors. God here speaks as though a) women are just property b) women can be given away without their will.
4. Not only are the wives given away like property, but the neighbor is supposed to 'lie with them' out in the open, apparently. In other words, have sex with them. And of course the women have no say in it, and couldn't say no if they didn't like this arrangement, now could they.
5. God's not only going to do this, he's going to make a public spectacle of it, to shame David. Not to mention shaming the women who are taken against their will, given to other men, and who are forced to have sex with them.

How can we not see this as God condoning rape? No, the text doesn't SAY the word rape, but the context is certainly clear enough. God wants to punish someone for doing something, but in the end, he winds up punishing the women who simply appear to be of no consequence to God, like they're expendable. They can't say no. They're forced into a situation. They're given as property. They have to have sex with strange men, all because God's punishing one man. That's rape.


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Too Few Lions

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2012, 09:52:39 AM »
Rape?  I'm not aware of any instance that God says "go and rape".  Go and kill...yes.  The context of killing is from a diety that owns life itself, if he does exist.  That is the rationalization.  If God created life, then it is his to take away, isn't it?  Not logical?  No, I would assume not since you might not approach it from this side.  You might approach it that life evolved by chance and therefore no one has the right to take another's life...and I would agree.  (assuming we agree on a productive society).
This bit actually bothers me more than slavery or rape. The Old Testament is an object lesson in religious intolerance, it was written by priests of Yahweh who seemed to think it was perfectly acceptable to murder people if they worshipped other gods, and they wrote a book where their god and some of his prophets and kings actively encouraged it.

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2012, 02:37:44 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt
And yet the fact remains, no where does God call his people to rape.  Maybe you see the delay in judgment as condoning.  But if the book is correct and God is, the end is yet to come and judgment will come.  God's ways, if he is, will be known.

Actually, he does. In fact, he says he'll allow rape to happen.

2 Samuel 12:7-12.

Quote
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9 Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’”

1. God gives David several things, including his 'master's wives' into his keeping. If we're generous, we can say he was maybe just supposed to look after them and treat them nicely. Okay.
2. David messed up by killing Uriah, he took Uriah's wife to be his wife... which of course wasn't consensual; it would have been forced, which meant she would have been forced to sleep with him. If you think that's not the case, ask yourself if she could have said NO to being his wife.
3. Because David killed Uriah and took Uriah's wife, God responds by taking their wives and giving them to their neighbors. God here speaks as though a) women are just property b) women can be given away without their will.
4. Not only are the wives given away like property, but the neighbor is supposed to 'lie with them' out in the open, apparently. In other words, have sex with them. And of course the women have no say in it, and couldn't say no if they didn't like this arrangement, now could they.
5. God's not only going to do this, he's going to make a public spectacle of it, to shame David. Not to mention shaming the women who are taken against their will, given to other men, and who are forced to have sex with them.

How can we not see this as God condoning rape? No, the text doesn't SAY the word rape, but the context is certainly clear enough. God wants to punish someone for doing something, but in the end, he winds up punishing the women who simply appear to be of no consequence to God, like they're expendable. They can't say no. They're forced into a situation. They're given as property. They have to have sex with strange men, all because God's punishing one man. That's rape.

Uh...no.  It's oh so obvious you've not read the story. 

Amicale

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2012, 02:49:51 PM »

Uh...no.  It's oh so obvious you've not read the story. 

Actually, I have (and had my bible open in front of me), but thanks for insulting me.

If that's not what it means at all, then you could have been kind enough to explain what it did mean. I actually did want to understand it. If I made an assumption that wasn't true or accurate, you could have told me why. From the context of that story, it certainly looks like the character of God in the story is saying exactly what the texts SAYS he says. Even if it was a parable, or a warning that never came to pass... it seems like he still says it.

How about you explain it?


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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2012, 02:51:57 PM »
Uh...no.  It's oh so obvious you've not read the story. 

That's all you have?  How about an explanation of how a very obvious interpretation is wrong?
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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2012, 02:59:49 PM »

Uh...no.  It's oh so obvious you've not read the story. 

Actually, I have (and had my bible open in front of me), but thanks for insulting me.

If that's not what it means at all, then you could have been kind enough to explain what it did mean. I actually did want to understand it. If I made an assumption that wasn't true or accurate, you could have told me why. From the context of that story, it certainly looks like the character of God in the story is saying exactly what the texts SAYS he says. Even if it was a parable, or a warning that never came to pass... it seems like he still says it.

How about you explain it?

Sorry for insulting you.  Sometimes I get the same spirit in me that others answer me by...not that you had.

Quote from: 2 Samuel 11:2-5
One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?"  Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then* she went back home.  The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, "I am pregnant."

1.  If David could see her from his roof...she was well aware of what she was doing...bathing.  He was the king...

2.  She came to him willingly.  See No. 1.

3.  She had just finished her period and so this makes it clear it was David's baby.

4.  She tells David she is prego.  The law prescribed death penalty for both of them (Lev. 20:10, Dt 22:22) By telling him, she leaves the next step up to him. (from a commentary)



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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2012, 03:11:18 PM »
1.  If David could see her from his roof...she was well aware of what she was doing...bathing.  He was the king...

2.  She came to him willingly.  See No. 1.

This made my eyes bug out of my head.  It's soooo "she was asking for it."   She just happened to know (or hope) that David would get out of bed, climb up onto the roof and see her bathing.  And of course she came to him, he was the king.  What would have happened to her if she had said no?  Again, if you can't say no...it's rape.

3.  She had just finished her period and so this makes it clear it was David's baby.

Actually, if you know anything about the female reproductive cycle, if she had just finished her period it's actually unlikely that it was David's baby.  Most women ovulate somewhere around cycle day 14, and most women finish their periods somewhere between cycle day 5-7.  But I digress.

And none of what your wrote explains how god means anything but "I'm going to have someone rape your wives in plain daylight where everyone can see" when he says "and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2012, 03:11:33 PM »
One more point I missed.

Quote from: 2 Samuel 11:6-15
So David sent this word to Joab: "Send me Uriah the Hittite." And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, "Go down to your house and wash your feet." So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master's servants and did not go down to his house.
    2SA 11:10 When David was told, "Uriah did not go home," he asked him, "Haven't you just come from a distance? Why didn't you go home?"
    2SA 11:11 Uriah said to David, "The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my master Joab and my lord's men are camped in the open fields. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and lie with my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!"
    2SA 11:12 Then David said to him, "Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back." So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David's invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master's servants; he did not go home.
    2SA 11:14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, "Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."

Clearly David sent for Uriah to give him a conjugal visit.  David sends for Uriah...and then asks, "How are things going..."  Really?

He sent for him to visit with his own wife that way the pregnancy would be seen as theirs and not of David.  But Uriah was too faithful of a soldier.  He felt it wasn't fair of him to be having fun while his fellow soldiers were in battle.  David gives him ANOTHER night AND gets him drunk...Uriah still stays "with his master".  It wasn't David's intention to TAKE Bathsheba as his own. 

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2012, 03:15:52 PM »
One more point I missed.

Quote from: 2 Samuel 11:6-15
So David sent this word to Joab: "Send me Uriah the Hittite." And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, "Go down to your house and wash your feet." So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master's servants and did not go down to his house.
    2SA 11:10 When David was told, "Uriah did not go home," he asked him, "Haven't you just come from a distance? Why didn't you go home?"
    2SA 11:11 Uriah said to David, "The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my master Joab and my lord's men are camped in the open fields. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and lie with my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!"
    2SA 11:12 Then David said to him, "Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back." So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David's invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master's servants; he did not go home.
    2SA 11:14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, "Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."

Clearly David sent for Uriah to give him a conjugal visit.  David sends for Uriah...and then asks, "How are things going..."  Really?

He sent for him to visit with his own wife that way the pregnancy would be seen as theirs and not of David.  But Uriah was too faithful of a soldier.  He felt it wasn't fair of him to be having fun while his fellow soldiers were in battle.  David gives him ANOTHER night AND gets him drunk...Uriah still stays "with his master".  It wasn't David's intention to TAKE Bathsheba as his own. 

Yeah, and again, how does any of this explain away that David raped Bathseba and then god is going to have his wives raped back?  Dacvid tries to pull some tricky maneuvers so he doesn't get found out.  What does that prove except he's got a guilty conscience?

Amicale

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2012, 03:17:05 PM »

Uh...no.  It's oh so obvious you've not read the story. 

Actually, I have (and had my bible open in front of me), but thanks for insulting me.

If that's not what it means at all, then you could have been kind enough to explain what it did mean. I actually did want to understand it. If I made an assumption that wasn't true or accurate, you could have told me why. From the context of that story, it certainly looks like the character of God in the story is saying exactly what the texts SAYS he says. Even if it was a parable, or a warning that never came to pass... it seems like he still says it.

How about you explain it?

Sorry for insulting you.  Sometimes I get the same spirit in me that others answer me by...not that you had.

Quote from: 2 Samuel 11:2-5
One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?"  Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then* she went back home.  The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, "I am pregnant."

1.  If David could see her from his roof...she was well aware of what she was doing...bathing.  He was the king...

2.  She came to him willingly.  See No. 1.

3.  She had just finished her period and so this makes it clear it was David's baby.

4.  She tells David she is prego.  The law prescribed death penalty for both of them (Lev. 20:10, Dt 22:22) By telling him, she leaves the next step up to him. (from a commentary)




Apology accepted. I can understand feeling defensive if you think you ought to be on the defense, but when I post, I TRY not to attack others. If I came across as attacking you somehow, then I apologize too. It's just that when I post about the Bible, I'm trying to understand the context of something, and if I make wrong or faulty assumptions, I'd sooner just be told how it is that I'm wrong, so I can correct myself if I need to. :)

OK, back to the story. So, David sees her bathing, and because she's beautiful and he wants her, she somehow wants him too? Just because he saw her bathing? That part of the story says that he sent messengers to go get her, so it was like she was summoned. And then he slept with her. Just like that? I must not understand why she would have willingly done so. David had power. She maybe knew that. She slept with him once, got pregnant, went home, and later told him she was pregnant. OK. Well, fair enough... different time, different culture, I suppose. It's the biblical equivalent of a 'booty call', I guess - sorry to be crass. ;)

Skip forward to verses 11 and 12 that I quoted in my first post, though.

11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’”

How is this explained? This was the part I had the major issue with. That God said he'd take women, give them to a neighbor, and the neighbor will 'have relations' with them. Is this objectionable to you, AD, that God would even say something like this? How is it that women can be given to anyone? How could they go willingly, and willingly 'lie with' those men? They still seem to be treated like property here, or sex objects. Can you explain to me how this isn't the case?


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Amicale

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2012, 03:19:11 PM »
Ali and I answered at the same time, I guess. I think we're thinking the same things.

1. I'm not convinced David and Bathsheba's union would have been consensual.

2. I don't understand why God basically says 'you had sex with a woman, now I'll make your women have sex with these other men'. This second point still smacks of rape to me.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2012, 03:19:55 PM »
Actually, if you know anything about the female reproductive cycle, if she had just finished her period it's actually unlikely that it was David's baby.  Most women ovulate somewhere around cycle day 14, and most women finish their periods somewhere between cycle day 5-7.  But I digress.

Exactly right.  It wasn't a one-night stand, was it?

Quote from: Ali
And none of what your wrote explains how god means anything but "I'm going to have someone rape your wives in plain daylight where everyone can see" when he says "and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."

You're not looking at this from the cultural setting, but I can't help that.  You're reading at face value and not a study.  I can see why you'd feel this way.

This goes to show that God knows the future.  You may say God caused the future, but I would simply disagree.

Quote from: 2 Samuel 16:22
So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he lay with his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.

This is David's son.  The whole story is quite interesting.

Edit:  Fixed quote.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 03:29:47 PM by AnimatedDirt »

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2012, 03:28:44 PM »
Ali and I answered at the same time, I guess. I think we're thinking the same things.

1. I'm not convinced David and Bathsheba's union would have been consensual.

2. I don't understand why God basically says 'you had sex with a woman, now I'll make your women have sex with these other men'. This second point still smacks of rape to me.

Thank you for accepting my apology. 

I can't convince you.  I can only present you the "facts".  (I only use quotes because most of *you put the bible as a fairytale...or fiction)

All I can say is ponder the situation some.  Women are not all pure.  Bathsheba was a woman of high standing...living within eye-shot of the king?  Her husband in the military...?  She knew exactly what she was doing bathing within eye-shot of the king.  Is it that you would never think a married woman would want a man of power even if she was married to another?  Is that really a stretch?  I don't think so and the story confirms this.  David was king!  Could he not do whatever he wanted?  Why go through this whole charade to cover up.