Author Topic: Slaves, Obey Your Masters  (Read 9062 times)

Truthseeker

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2012, 08:45:54 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt
Rape?  I'm not aware of any instance that God says "go and rape".  

Ali, Damn you.  You completely beat me to the punch.  I just spent some time assembling all this and I am not about to just delete it.  You all can just read again.  

Rape along with some other egregious orders with nothing taken out of context.  This is pretty damn clear:

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.  

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

                                                                                     Numbers 31:7-18                                                                        

   As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

                                                                                     Deuteronomy 20:10-14


Also check out Judges 21
  

« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 08:50:03 PM by Truthseeker »
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AnimatedDirt

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2012, 08:48:31 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt
Rape?  I'm not aware of any instance that God says "go and rape". 

Rape along with some other egregious orders with nothing taken out of context.  This is pretty damn clear:

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.  

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

                                                                                     Numbers 31:7-18                                                                        

   As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

                                                                                     Deuteronomy 20:10-14


Also check out Judges 21

I don't see anywhere that God says, "go and rape". 

Ali

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2012, 08:54:37 PM »
I guess it doesn't specifically say "Go and rape, that's an order."  It's more like "You can rape, if you feel like it."

Quote
Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

is so much less rapey than

Quote
Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you must keep them for yourselves.

 ::)

Truthseeker

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2012, 09:07:53 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt

I don't see anywhere that God says, "go and rape". 

AD.  You are smarter than that.  I know you are.  I am not trying to be condescending, but it is right before your eyes.  Remove that veneer of sanctity and see reality.  Ali really should not have had to point out that it does not have your exact verbiage. 
Suffering is the breaking of the shell that encloses one's understanding.  Khalil Gibran

AnimatedDirt

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2012, 09:11:01 PM »
I guess it doesn't specifically say "Go and rape, that's an order."  It's more like "You can rape, if you feel like it."

Quote
Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

is so much less rapey than

Quote
Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you must keep them for yourselves.

 ::)

You're inserting your own bias...something that is not there.  The commentary on this passage is:

Quote
While the troops killed the men of Midian, they spared the women and children as plunder. Moses commanded that only the virgin women (who were thus innocent of the indecencies at Peor) could be spared; the guilty women and the boys (who might endanger the inheritance rights of Israelite men) were to be put to death.

No where does it say these were raped as directed by God.  In fact the word it uses is, "innocent" and "spared".

AnimatedDirt

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2012, 09:13:55 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt

I don't see anywhere that God says, "go and rape". 

AD.  You are smarter than that.  I know you are.  I am not trying to be condescending, but it is right before your eyes.  Remove that veneer of sanctity and see reality.  Ali really should not have had to point out that it does not have your exact verbiage. 

The accusation is that God/the Bible condones rape.  Where? 

Ali

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2012, 09:14:45 PM »
IT SAYS "KEEP THE WOMEN FOR YOURSELVES."  What do you think they were going to do with them?  Serve them lemonade?  In another passage it talks about a man buying a woman for a slave and then taking her as a wife.  Newsflash, if she's a slave, she can't say no.  If she can't say no, IT'S RAPE.  

Ali

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2012, 09:20:30 PM »
I guess it doesn't specifically say "Go and rape, that's an order."  It's more like "You can rape, if you feel like it."

Quote
Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

is so much less rapey than

Quote
Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you must keep them for yourselves.

 ::)

You're inserting your own bias...something that is not there.  The commentary on this passage is:

Quote
While the troops killed the men of Midian, they spared the women and children as plunder. Moses commanded that only the virgin women (who were thus innocent of the indecencies at Peor) could be spared; the guilty women and the boys (who might endanger the inheritance rights of Israelite men) were to be put to death.

No where does it say these were raped as directed by God.  In fact the word it uses is, "innocent" and "spared".

Oh, and I do NOT buy that they kept the virgins because they were the only ones that were innocent of the "indecencies of Peor." (whatever that means.)  I bet there were plenty of decent married non-virgins that got killed that had never even heard of the "indecencies of Peor."  It's just that religious dudes have a rather indecent obsession with being the one to get to pop a girl's cherry.

Truthseeker

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2012, 09:30:03 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt

The accusation is that God/the Bible condones rape.  Where? 

Wow!  God, that was me.  Seeing that response is like a leap back in time. 

I'll let it go now.  But I think AD, if you are intellectually honest with yourself you can see what Ali and I are pointing out.  But I truly do know and appreciate where you are coming from.  I sincerely do.  You seem like a good person with a good heart.  As alluded to before, Christianity should be glad to have you. 
Suffering is the breaking of the shell that encloses one's understanding.  Khalil Gibran

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2012, 09:52:33 PM »
IT SAYS "KEEP THE WOMEN FOR YOURSELVES."  What do you think they were going to do with them?  Serve them lemonade?  In another passage it talks about a man buying a woman for a slave and then taking her as a wife.  Newsflash, if she's a slave, she can't say no.  If she can't say no, IT'S RAPE.

We can only assume.  It seems pretty much the culture of the day that the conquered knew their place and accepted it.  They possibly were raped, I don't gloss over whether there was rape in the bible.  My point is that no where does God "condone" rape.  Man has always done what he (and she) wants to do regardless of their moral compass.  If there was rape, God will judge accordingly those that did their own bidding.

AnimatedDirt

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2012, 09:55:15 PM »
Quote from: AnimatedDirt

The accusation is that God/the Bible condones rape.  Where? 

Wow!  God, that was me.  Seeing that response is like a leap back in time. 

I'll let it go now.  But I think AD, if you are intellectually honest with yourself you can see what Ali and I are pointing out.  But I truly do know and appreciate where you are coming from.  I sincerely do.  You seem like a good person with a good heart.  As alluded to before, Christianity should be glad to have you.

And yet the fact remains, no where does God call his people to rape.  Maybe you see the delay in judgment as condoning.  But if the book is correct and God is, the end is yet to come and judgment will come.  God's ways, if he is, will be known.

Ali

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2012, 10:03:36 PM »
IT SAYS "KEEP THE WOMEN FOR YOURSELVES."  What do you think they were going to do with them?  Serve them lemonade?  In another passage it talks about a man buying a woman for a slave and then taking her as a wife.  Newsflash, if she's a slave, she can't say no.  If she can't say no, IT'S RAPE.

We can only assume.  It seems pretty much the culture of the day that the conquered knew their place and accepted it.  They possibly were raped, I don't gloss over whether there was rape in the bible.  My point is that no where does God "condone" rape.  Man has always done what he (and she) wants to do regardless of their moral compass.  If there was rape, God will judge accordingly those that did their own bidding.

According to the Bible, god says "Keep the women for yourselves."  He also lays out rules for marrying your female slave who is unable to say no.  How can you call that anything but condoning rape?

AnimatedDirt

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2012, 10:19:05 PM »
According to the Bible, god says "Keep the women for yourselves."  He also lays out rules for marrying your female slave who is unable to say no.  How can you call that anything but condoning rape?

I'm not sure "God" did this, however I can concede that if so, God works through our stubborness and if we do keep women for ourselves, then we must marry them...and they become equals. 

As I've said, I don't have all the answers.  I don't have all the knowledge of every instance of cultural happenings nor if God did say this or that specifically on every instance.  I can, however say that if God is, there is an explanation.

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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2012, 10:34:54 PM »
According to the Bible, god says "Keep the women for yourselves."  He also lays out rules for marrying your female slave who is unable to say no.  How can you call that anything but condoning rape?

I'm not sure "God" did this, however I can concede that if so, God works through our stubborness and if we do keep women for ourselves, then we must marry them...and they become equals. 

As I've said, I don't have all the answers.  I don't have all the knowledge of every instance of cultural happenings nor if God did say this or that specifically on every instance.  I can, however say that if God is, there is an explanation.
Because forced marriage is so much better then just plain rape?  :-\

And please don't serve up the old "God works in mysterious ways" statement.....


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Re: Slaves, Obey Your Masters
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2012, 10:40:56 PM »
Because forced marriage is so much better then just plain rape?  :-\

And please don't serve up the old "God works in mysterious ways" statement...

It sounds like you have proof he doesn't...do share.