Struggling Atheists deail replay to; Why God?

[Liar For Jesus]

Why God?

The majority of the human population appear to profess a belief in a God or Gods. Why is this? What is the root of God in the human psyche?

Consider our ancestors and what makes humans different from all other animals, our brains. What evolutionary advantage does our brain give us?  It gives us the ability to determine cause and predict effect. It gives us the ability to create and manipulate symbolic language. Thus 'Get up a tree there's a Rhino charging!' contains all the abstract symbolic information to potentially save the lives of a hunting party. Another example would be for a human to make a tool knowing that the sharp edge of a broken flint will cut skin and flesh.  We also have an imagination, the ability to create a fantasy and examine the unreal.  Along with these useful traits our brains come with some evolved deficiencies, autism, dreams and paranoia (the dark side of the imagination) to mention just three.

Consider 'original' belief systems, such as the animistic spiritual beliefs of isolated tribes throughout the world. Put yourself in their hut, at night, deep in a jungle where they were born. They dream and wake having no idea what a dream really is, they don't know it's an evolved 'housekeeping' process. All they know is there was a giant demon snake slithering after them. Why was a giant snake chasing them in their sleep? Original belief systems attribute causation to the unknown, spirits that control the unknown because all effects have causes; don't they?  

Cause and effect demand knowledge and understanding. Imagination underpins curiosity. Any of our ancestors that were not curious enough died of starvation, any of our ancestors that were too curious died of surprise. Consider some of our ancestors who have evolved abstract language and are self-aware, discussing one thing we all know; the sun rises.  However these ancestors did not understand why the sun rises. They have knowledge but not understanding. But in their experience all effects have a cause. So if the sun rises what causes it to rise? People don't like not knowing why something happens, it's almost psychologically painful to not know why something happens. It's called cognitive dissonance.

So why did cognitive dissonance start the path to God? When faced with knowledge but not understanding the mind can get distracted and confused. A distracted mind is often dangerous, more dangerous on average than a confident mind. Inaction is more likely to lead to failure of some sort than action. Sitting doing nothing will lead to failure, getting up and doing something may lead to success or failure. Only the confident 'do something' option has a possibility of success.  So if one person is distracted and reticent while the other is focused and confident the latter is slightly more likely to achieve a positive (survival/reproductive) outcome.  

So we have an animist original belief system wrapped around a mind with knowledge but no understanding of the true nature of reality. We have an evolutionary advantage to do something rather than nothing. Thus it is reasonable, in the circumstances, and evolutionarily advantageous to place a 'spirit' in any gap in understanding. I think this is why superstition survives because 'on average' to be superstitious is evolutionarily advantageous.

So why move from a spirit or animist world view to a 'concrete' God based world view? I think the 'alpha male syndrome' and tribalism push belief towards monotheism. Obviously there are plenty of pantheistic belief systems still around but while they were once in the majority they are now in the minority and continuing to decline.  Thus Gods become God. I think that Allah was once the top God in a pantheistic belief system; Mohamed simply promoted him and demoted all the others.

Now while the world was 'large' and ideas (memes) stayed apart and embedded in tribal folk law there were as many Gods as there were tribes/cultures.  Everybody had their own version of the first cause; the reason the sun came up every day.  Then written language arrived. This allowed the formalisation of ideas that could be consistently spread across the land and between generations. Superstitions became institutionalised into religions; concrete memes that existed beyond the tribe or any living individual. Memes persist through transmission between individuals. Children believe adults and in particular their parents. Families, and tribes, are entities that support meme transmission and reinforcement.

Humans respect authority; it's a trait that natural selection has driven into us for generation after generation. Take two mothers, each with a child. One mother shouts at her child 'Don't eat that!' and the child complies. The same happens between the other mother and child and the child eats any way, and dies. Thus children have evolved to be uncritical of what they are told by their parents and by extension adults in general and people perceived to be in authority. There is no such thing as a sceptical young child and some people don't appear to ever get past the gullible stage.

So we now have spirits in place of understanding, alpha male behaviour exacerbated by tribalism, an unwarranted respect for authority all mixed together and compounded by institutionalisation brought about by the written word. It is from this concoction that I contend the creation of the God meme was inevitable. The God meme flourishes because it is simple to understand, and thus easy to transmit, immensely emotionally satisfying (daddy is great and will always look after us) and common belief gives one a feeling of societal security. Once one has a God one has the potential to manipulate one's circumstances through ritual worship or personal prayer.  One gains a modicum of perceived control over the unknown e.g. "if I sacrifice this person the rains will come!"

It's no surprise to me that all religions hinge on a book. For some reason humans often attribute authority to something written down. It may be because we have become used to things being written down by intelligent people or people in authority or that our education systems are founded on books. Thus the book becomes the synthesis of the authority and in the case of the Koran this is absolute authority as the words are deemed to be those of Allah himself.  

Thus humans created God out of ignorance and need.

My Christian friends say that  a personal theistic Creator who is transcendent over all of creation placed his indelible mark on all of humankind the same way an (unseen)  Painter can be personally experienced by the finished painting he creates , and that,  this Creator has put within each of us an intrinsic capacity to know him as deeply as we want to go with that , fundamentally and initially thru observation and discovery of the wonderful, exquisite, highly complex things in the reality around us that catch and appeal to  our senses --- it sort of ties in with Americas Founding Fathers expressing that God 'is self evident' .   If the above scenario be true, then it wouldnt be a case where humans have created God out of ignorance and need.  Of course if atheism is indeed correct,  then  the crutch-proposition would be at least quasi valid as an explanation.  

[Recusant]

. . . it sort of ties in with Americas Founding Fathers expressing that God 'is self evident'. . . .

I'm going to ignore the ridiculous "proxy" preaching in your post for the moment, and ask you to substantiate this assertion. Which of America's founding fathers said that "God 'is self evident' "? Where is this said? Aquinas himself stated that "Therefore, that God exists is not self-evident," and I certainly would be interested in learning which of the founding fathers of the US was of a contrary opinion, and wrote down that opinion.

[Ali]

. . . it sort of ties in with Americas Founding Fathers expressing that God 'is self evident'. . . .

I'm going to ignore the ridiculous "proxy" preaching in your post for the moment, and ask you to substantiate this assertion. Which of America's founding fathers said that "God 'is self evident' "? Where is this said? Aquinas himself stated that "Therefore, that God exists is not self-evident," and I certainly would be interested in learning which of the founding fathers of the US was of a contrary opinion, and wrote down that opinion.

I think what SA is referring to is "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  If it's self-evident that all men are created equal by their Creator, then mustn't the Creator be self-evident as well?  Or something like that.  Struggling Atheist, you really DO struggle against your atheism, don't you?    

Anyway, I kind of agree with the thesis that the idea of a God endows people with a sense of increased personal power.  Why else would they pray?  I mean, if you think about it rationally, even if you believe in a god, prayer makes zero sense.  You're esseentially assuming that an All-Knowing All-Powerful god wll do things as a personal favor to you.  Like, he wasn't going to, but then you asked, and well, you're buds, so he changed his mind.  Very easily swayed in the Creator  What I like even better is when they have lots of people all pray for the same thing.  Like god's will is based on some sort of porpularity contest - whoever gets the most prayers gets their way!  And why would you have to actually sit down and pray?  Being All Knowing, wouldn't he know your heart's desire before you actualy sit down and vocalize it?  But I think that the deal with prayer is that it makes people feel like they are doing something.  Like, if I'm dying of a horrible disease, odds are that you won't be able to help me, and that sucks.  But by praying, you feel like you're still contributing somehow, because you've got god's ear and you're speaking up on my behalf.

[Stevil]

They also acknowledge that answered prayer cannot be statistically measured, the outcomes are statistically equivalent with outcomes that were not prayed for. Go figure!

[Sandra Craft]

But I think that the deal with prayer is that it makes people feel like they are doing something.  Like, if I'm dying of a horrible disease, odds are that you won't be able to help me, and that sucks.  But by praying, you feel like you're still contributing somehow, because you've got god's ear and you're speaking up on my behalf.

I think there's a spiritual discipline aspect as well -- the "a man is never so great as when he's on his knees" thing.  The act of praying becomes a way of expressing, and possibly feeling, humility and of learning patience and acceptance of the inevitable (how long it may take god to answer, that the answer might be no, etc).

[Recusant]

I think what SA is referring to is "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I hope that Struggling Atheist answers for himself, but this might as well be dealt with now.

1. The original draft of the Declaration of Independence did not mention a Creator in the phrase in question.

2. A "Creator" may represent a Deist creator entity, rather than the Christian god. The fact is that "God" is not used in the phrase.

3. Most importantly, the thing that is affirmed to be self evident is the equality of men, not a god, nor a creator. There is simply no affirmation of a self-evident quality of a Creator. The writer(s) of the Declaration of Independence may well have agreed with Aquinas for all we know, who thought that the existence of his god was not self evident, but could be shown to exist through reasoning. Again: the Declaration does not address the question of whether the "Creator" is self evident or not, and I think that only a Christian trying to use specious reasoning to justify their "Christian nation" rhetoric would say otherwise.

If it's self-evident that all men are created equal by their Creator, then mustn't the Creator be self-evident as well?  Or something like that.

No. See #3 above.

[Ali]

I think what SA is referring to is "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I hope that Struggling Atheist answers for himself, but this might as well be dealt with now.

1. The original draft of the Declaration of Independence did not mention a Creator in the phrase in question.

2. A "Creator" may represent a Deist creator entity, rather than the Christian god. The fact is that "God" is not used in the phrase.

3. Most importantly, the thing that is affirmed to be self evident is the equality of men, not a god, nor a creator. There is simply no affirmation of a self-evident quality of a Creator. The writer(s) of the Declaration of Independence may well have agreed with Aquinas for all we know, who thought that the existence of his god was not self evident, but could be shown to exist through reasoning. Again: the Declaration does not address the question of whether the "Creator" is self evident or not, and I think that only a Christian trying to use specious reasoning to justify their "Christian nation" rhetoric would say otherwise.

If it's self-evident that all men are created equal by their Creator, then mustn't the Creator be self-evident as well?  Or something like that.

No. See #3 above.

Preachin' to the choir Rec!  I agree with everything you wrote.  I'm not saying I think that a creator is self-evident (quite the opposite, in fact) I'm just saying I thinkk that is what SA was probably referring to.  Haha, next time I'll let him answer for himself.   

[Sandra Craft]

The writer(s) of the Declaration of Independence may well have agreed with Aquinas for all we know, who thought that the existence of his god was not self evident, but could be shown to exist through reasoning.

In other words, god is not self-evident (which is obvious) so you have to talk yourself into believing in it?

[Tank]

SA I have split your comment into a new thread as it was completly off-topic.

[The Magic Pudding]

In other words, god is not self-evident (which is obvious) so you have to talk yourself into believing in it?

You're out walking with a friend and you fall down an old mine shaft.
There's no way you're going to get yourself out.
Your friend asks, "someone will come for us won't they? They must be."

The amount of effort required to talk yourself into believing might depend on your need.

[Gawen]

My Christian friends say that  a personal theistic Creator who is transcendent over all of creation placed his indelible mark on all of humankind the same way an (unseen)  Painter can be personally experienced by the finished painting he creates ,

Well, when you see a painting done by a human you at least know a human did it. But I have seen paintings with paint and done by brush that were painted by chimps or dogs with big tails. Had I not been told in the description that they were painted by other than a human, I would have thought they were painted by a human. Such is the case with some types of art. So not all paintings lead to the indelibly marked conclusion that they were painted by a human.

and that,  this Creator has put within each of us an intrinsic capacity to know him

Funny how this invisible god can give us an intrinsic capacity to know it when itself has no intrinsic capacity (no nature).

as deeply as we want to go with that ,

A dial-a-god? Feeling like you need a heftier dose of god today, just turn the knob to the selected number....

fundamentally

This is a joke...

and initially thru observation and discovery of the wonderful, exquisite, highly complex things in the reality around us that catch and appeal to  our senses

Yet our senses pick up no god?

--- it sort of ties in with Americas Founding Fathers expressing that God 'is self evident' .

Already been dealt with. And another huge leap of faith.

If the above scenario be true, then it wouldnt be a case where humans have created God out of ignorance and need.  

If the above scenario be true, have you believers friends come here and provide the evidence for it.

Of course if atheism is indeed correct,  then  the crutch-proposition would be at least quasi valid as an explanation.  

You are indeed struggling if you can say "Of course if atheism is indeed correct"...

[Liar For Jesus]

SA I have split your comment into a new thread as it was completly off-topic.

I gave answer to Recusants inquiry (above)  regarding 'truths being self evident'  and provided a specific quotation from The U.S. Declaration of Independence  ... so im not clear how that is off topic since it was He that brought it up .   At any rate,  I cannot find where on the Forum  you split this into a new thread  with the dialogue continuing re: truths being self evident.    Can u please give me the link so i can see how Recusant responded and to see if he had any more questions for me  ?.  Thanks.

[Genericguy]

So in other words the world exists, therefore god exists. How would YOU make the leap from world to god? If you can't then why even bring it up?

Of course if atheism is indeed correct

I'm new to this forum and i could be wrong, but the original post and the above statement leads me to believe your not struggling at all. If that's the case then you're just lying, possibly to get "closer" and make it easier to convert. If so, that's manipulation and its offensive. If not, I apologize.

[Ali]

SA I have split your comment into a new thread as it was completly off-topic.

I gave answer to Recusants inquiry (above)  regarding 'truths being self evident'  and provided a specific quotation from The U.S. Declaration of Independence  ... so im not clear how that is off topic since it was He that brought it up .   At any rate,  I cannot find where on the Forum  you split this into a new thread  with the dialogue continuing re: truths being self evident.    Can u please give me the link so i can see how Recusant responded and to see if he had any more questions for me  ?.  Thanks.

Where did you answer Recusant's inquiry about truths being self evident?  I saw where I answered what I thought you were referencing, but I don't see where you actually answered, even to confirm that my guess was right.  I know, I know, everyone wants to be me, but please don't take credit for the breathtakingly insightful things that come out of my mouth......

[Liar For Jesus]

SA I have split your comment into a new thread as it was completly off-topic.

I gave answer to Recusants inquiry (above)  regarding 'truths being self evident'  and provided a specific quotation from The U.S. Declaration of Independence  ... so im not clear how that is off topic since it was He that brought it up .   At any rate,  I cannot find where on the Forum  you split this into a new thread  with the dialogue continuing re: truths being self evident.    Can u please give me the link so i can see how Recusant responded and to see if he had any more questions for me  ?.  Thanks.

Where did you answer Recusant's inquiry about truths being self evident?  I saw where I answered what I thought you were referencing, but I don't see where you actually answered, even to confirm that my guess was right.  I know, I know, everyone wants to be me, but please don't take credit for the breathtakingly insightful things that come out of my mouth......

I did in fact reply to Recusant with a ccp'd highlight of the U.S. Declaration of Independence where it states :' We hold these truths to be self evident, that'......(people have human rights , that God exists,  and that these basic rights come from God) , but, it never appeared in the thread .  So , either  it was moved to a new thread , or, a Forum Administrator deleted it  would be my guess .