Author Topic: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?  (Read 3136 times)

Will

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2011, 04:58:32 AM »
Maybe we should start a population control thread so we don't move too far off the question of whether all atheists are opposed to abortion.
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LegendarySandwich

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2011, 05:02:20 AM »
I don't think we should ever enforce abortion, or any other form of population control (unless someone can convince me otherwise). I just think it should be encouraged in overpopulated areas.

TheJackel

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2011, 05:12:58 AM »
Quote from: "Will"
Maybe we should start a population control thread so we don't move too far off the question of whether all atheists are opposed to abortion.

Well, I think this is inherently apart of the discussion. But to answer whether or not population control in regards to abortion should be enforced, that really depends on how severe the problem becomes. Remember, I am only arguing from that position of do or become extinct.. So to clarify my position here, I would just say that hypocrisy would become a choice of survival. I personally believe abortion is allowable in some cases while holding the stance that it would be unreasonable in other cases. It does a child no good to be brought up in an abusive home, or by parents that never wanted their children. There will be unfair and unwanted cause and effects on either side of the coin here, and I just think people should consider those before really debating such legislation, or position. And I say that because my position isn't exactly set in concrete on this issue because of the various reasons that are fore and against it.

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2011, 05:30:34 AM »
I'm pro-choice.  My personal choice would probably be not to have an abortion myself, but I would never dream of making that choice for anyone else.  I've also personally chosen to use BC to minimize the likelihood that I'll ever have to make that decision either way.

I agree with Whitney that I wish there was better, more accessible sex education.  Ideally, women would not have to be in a position to have to choose to get an abortion in the first place because they'd have taken precautions against pregnancy.  Of course that doesn't rule out the unfortunate reality of incest or rape, but certainly education would minimize it to a point.
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Wilson

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2011, 07:48:53 AM »
Quote from: "TheJackel"
What would it (world population) be estimated at in the year 3500?

My guess - 0.

In fact, I've put $100 on it with my bookie.

Tank

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2011, 08:17:59 AM »
Quote from: "a-train"
Quote from: "Tank"
In Saudi Arabia girls with non-congenital physical or mental handicaps often become the third or forth wife of a man simply to produce children. This to me is one of the most degrading things done anywhere on Earth.
But what if this woman, suffering her condition, is happy in this scenario?  Would we banish her to loneliness?  Prevent her from enjoying the pleasure she desires?  Perhaps this is the only man in her society that will offer her these opportunities, will we prevent him?

-a-train
The womb has no choice in the matter as that is all that is considered in these exchanges, unless of course we are discussing a particularly beautiful mentally retarded 14 year old girl in which case she might be considered quite a catch. If the girl gets some benefit out of the arrangement then great, but that would be a side effect in some/many/most cases? The treatment of women in Saudi is a disgrace. The treatment of the handicapped even more so. Their families generally consider them a punishment from Allah.

However if you are making the point that physically and mentally handicapped people have the right to self determination I would agree with you completely. The point I'm making is that the individual should have choice in the matter and if they are incapable of choice then they are in need of protection from those that would exploit them.

EDIT

Have a read of this thread at the Richard Dawkins forum archive http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtop ... b48dd7c1d9
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 08:32:35 AM by Tank »
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Tank

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2011, 08:26:30 AM »
Quote from: "Wilson"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Intrauterine brainwaves seems as good a criterion as any for determining when thought begins, don't you think?  After all, there is a very strong correlation between an active EEG readout and and active thought process.

What I'm saying is that that's pretty arbitrary as a dividing line.  A matter of individual opinion.
No it's not an arbitrary dividing line, that would be like saying 14 weeks and no more for no other reason than one felt it was a good idea, that would be arbitrary. The appearance of brain activity in the foetus is not arbitrary as it can be measured and qualified. Whether one feels that reaching this developmental milestone is a valid reason to prohibit abortion under some circumstances is a different and more detailed question.

Hack makes a good point as up until brain activity is identified the foetus could neither comprehend nor react to the abortion.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2011, 08:28:33 AM »
Quote from: "Will"
Maybe we should start a population control thread so we don't move too far off the question of whether all atheists are opposed to abortion.
Would you do the honours and split off the derail posts into their own thread please.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Letra Runt

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2011, 02:44:40 PM »
I am politically in the middle on abortion. Yes it's an important issue that's obvious. But unlike many other political things, there's actual good logical reasons that can be spoken from both sides when it comes to abortion. If someone became pregnant against their will I'd be for it, but otherwise I just can't really make up my mind really. Really I consider myself neutral on abortion, and tend to feel stronger about subjects where I can't see good reasons on both sides. It's an important thing yes, but just too complicated for me to feel like strongly judging on it.

Whitney

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2011, 04:00:14 PM »
Quote from: "Wilson"
There's a very good reason to extend personhood to a fetus - that it is literally a living human being with the potential for developing into a fully formed person, and there's no logical way to draw the line between personhood and non-personhood.  I assume that you would be opposed to killing a newborn baby, for the convenience of the mother, right?  Yet it isn't a full sentient person yet.

Person is a legal concept which extends rights to a living being.  In order to grant personhood to a fetus we would also have to take away the mother's personhood as she would lose the right to make decisions about her own body.  After the baby is born the mother can choose to give it away if she is unable to care for it.  So, there is a very clear legal line of where it would make rational sense to define personhood.

Since the legal definition of person is what we should use for law and deciding if abortion ought to be a choice then that gives a good rational basis for making the decision.

Philosophically and as a matter of ethics it would make more sense to look at when we think the fetus develops higher brain function and is viable..third trimester.  The reason this line makes sense is because it is now able to survive by itself if removed from the mother.  But viable babies that need to be removed from the mother before full term aren't aborted, they are birthed by c-section so it's a moot issue.

So, I still don't see why one would have to make an emotional decision about choice as there are a couple rational lines to look at; obviously we can tell when a baby is born but when it is viable is harder to pin point and I don't think ethics should be legislated unless the issue also causes a societal issue.

LARA

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2011, 04:30:16 PM »
I am personally opposed to abortion only in the third trimester for non-medical reasons.  And the medical reason does need to be severe enough.  Genetic testing may become sensitive enough to detect less severe and chronic illnesses, such as asthma or diabetes, and it currently would be possible for a parent to abort on the basis of the sex of the child. I personally don't feel these types of illness or personal choices warrant an abortion at this stage of fetal development.

As far as instituting this into law, however, I am pro-choice as I would never want to force someone to bring a child into the world if they can't love it and provide a decent home for it, unless there are real adoption alternatives.  Some leeway in the law towards more freedom of choice for the mother is necessary.  All cases are unique and the American legal system is notoriously inconsistent.

Also, true to the pro-choice stance, I am against any type of coerced or forced abortions for any reason since it is a medical procedure and all medical procedures must be the choice of the individual undergoing them.  The only instance in which I think this may be of concern in the U.S. is when an individual has been declared incompetent by the state for mental health reasons, but I'm not really sure what the laws are in this case, so it may not be an issue.
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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2011, 06:36:13 PM »
I think that abortion should be legal until birth.  And, parents should be allowed to sell their children.

-a-train

Will

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2011, 08:32:20 PM »
How much should infants cost? Will there be coupons?
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Whitney

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2011, 08:58:25 PM »
Quote from: "Will"
How much should infants cost? Will there be coupons?

I've heard the going rate for US adoptions is 30 or 40 grand after all is said and done.

(No wonder people go overseas to buy their babies)

TheJackel

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Re: Any Atheists Here Opposed to Abortion?
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2011, 10:30:11 PM »
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 10:53:57 PM by TheJackel »