Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 2836 times)

hackenslash

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 497
Re: Atheism
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2011, 09:28:23 PM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
It 'seems' to me that you have found a good device there by which you need never again say you believe anything - a synonym, seemingly!

Which bit of 'belief is useless' is escaping you here? I'm pretty sure I've covered that. I don't do belief.

Quote
I believe you... oops, sorry, I mean it 'seems' to me you are genuine in your statement: you did not employ anything containing any philosophical process to arrive at the decision that empiricism was the best approach.  I wonder if it 'seems' to you that I am being genuine when I say this.  I admit, you might believe that I am not telling the truth.

Actually, I have no opinion or belief whatsoever regarding your honesty or lack thereof, not least because I couldn't care less.
Dogma is the death of the intellect - hackenslash

No man is more hopelessly enslaved than one who falsely believes he's free - Goethe

If I showed your preposterous beliefs the respect you think they deserve, I wouldn't be showing you the respect you deserve - hackenslash


Existentialist

  • Doesn't Believe in Mother Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 166
Re: Atheism
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 09:50:55 PM »
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
If there is not a shred of evidence for it, yes, I do. Anytime a claim is made before me i'd like to see something that gives some sort of credibility to the claim.

Thanks.  The question is, what's the reason you've come to that way of deciding things?

LegendarySandwich

  • Kickin' Back With d'Holbach
  • ****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Trying to be a freethinker
Re: Atheism
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 09:52:59 PM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
If there is not a shred of evidence for it, yes, I do. Anytime a claim is made before me i'd like to see something that gives some sort of credibility to the claim.

Thanks.  The question is, what's the reason you've come to that way of deciding things?
Logic? Reason? Rational thinking?

Ultima22689

  • Has Actually Read the Bible!
  • **
  • Posts: 612
Re: Atheism
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 10:11:38 PM »
As the Legendary Sandwich put it, that's the best way I can define said line of thinking. I've always thought that way ever since I could remember, even as a small child. When my grandparents tried to indoctrinate me into christanity, I asked them "how do we know God is real?" They responded he just is. I asked them to prove it, they coudn't therefore I concluded it's a load of crock.

Existentialist

  • Doesn't Believe in Mother Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 166
Re: Atheism
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 10:25:13 PM »
Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"
Quote from: "Existentialist"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
If there is not a shred of evidence for it, yes, I do. Anytime a claim is made before me i'd like to see something that gives some sort of credibility to the claim.

Thanks.  The question is, what's the reason you've come to that way of deciding things?
Logic? Reason? Rational thinking?

With respect - and I'm sorry if I'm taking you too literally, those are questions, not answers.

LegendarySandwich

  • Kickin' Back With d'Holbach
  • ****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Trying to be a freethinker
Re: Atheism
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 10:32:21 PM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
With respect - and I'm sorry if I'm taking you too literally, those are questions, not answers.
:|

Yes, you are taking me too literally. Just remove the question marks and replace them with commas and/or periods, and you should be fine.

Existentialist

  • Doesn't Believe in Mother Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 166
Re: Atheism
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 11:18:28 PM »
Quote from: "hackenslash"

Which bit of 'belief is useless' is escaping you here? I'm pretty sure I've covered that. I don't do belief.

...

Actually, I have no opinion or belief whatsoever regarding your honesty or lack thereof, not least because I couldn't care less.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you in any way.  But yours does appear to be a particularly interesting position.  You told me that belief is a useless concept, and that people 'cling' to beliefs.  Then I asked you why you believed that 'cling' was the right word and you said you didn't believe it was, just that it 'seemed' to be the appropriate word to use.  Please accept my apologies if the way I explored this was a little indirect but basically I believe you used the word 'seem' as a substitute for the word 'belief'.  I'd therefore ask you if you think this is the case.  I can see that there might be a number of ways of avoiding the question - like getting irritated, for example, and being dismissive and saying you've already the covered the issue when you haven't.  But I'm asking you to answer my question for intellectual reasons, not personal ones.

It seems to me, and I believe, that maintaining a philosophical position that "I don't believe anything" is incredibly difficult to do, and bound to break down within one or two replies.  I admire the attempt.  But here is my question and I'd be really appreciative if you'd answer.  Aren't you just not using the word 'belief' but still using the concept of 'belief' by substituting words like 'it seems to me'?

LegendarySandwich

  • Kickin' Back With d'Holbach
  • ****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Trying to be a freethinker
Re: Atheism
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 11:22:32 PM »
I'd like not to believe anything, but I think I'd be dishonest if I said so.

Existentialist

  • Doesn't Believe in Mother Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 166
Re: Atheism
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 11:26:55 PM »
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
As the Legendary Sandwich put it, that's the best way I can define said line of thinking. I've always thought that way ever since I could remember, even as a small child. When my grandparents tried to indoctrinate me into christanity, I asked them "how do we know God is real?" They responded he just is. I asked them to prove it, they coudn't therefore I concluded it's a load of crock.

What happened to your parents?

Ultima22689

  • Has Actually Read the Bible!
  • **
  • Posts: 612
Re: Atheism
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 11:32:08 PM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
As the Legendary Sandwich put it, that's the best way I can define said line of thinking. I've always thought that way ever since I could remember, even as a small child. When my grandparents tried to indoctrinate me into christanity, I asked them "how do we know God is real?" They responded he just is. I asked them to prove it, they coudn't therefore I concluded it's a load of crock.

What happened to your parents?


My parents raised me in a secular home, there was no mention of religion.

hackenslash

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 497
Re: Atheism
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2011, 11:39:53 PM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you in any way.

No need to apologise. What makes you think I'm the least bit offended?

Quote
 But yours does appear to be a particularly interesting position.  You told me that belief is a useless concept, and that people 'cling' to beliefs.  Then I asked you why you believed that 'cling' was the right word and you said you didn't believe it was, just that it 'seemed' to be the appropriate word to use.  Please accept my apologies if the way I explored this was a little indirect but basically I believe you used the word 'seem' as a substitute for the word 'belief'.  I'd therefore ask you if you think this is the case.

Then you would be wrong. The way I use language, especially employing a wide variety of words, has nothing to do with belief, it is merely the use of linguistic devices. The word didn't just seem to be the right word, it was the right word, because it's a perfect description of how people treat their beliefs.

Quote
I can see that there might be a number of ways of avoiding the question

Why would I want to avoid the question?

Quote
- like getting irritated, for example, and being dismissive

What makes you think I'm irritated? I have been nothing but charming. If I have been dismissive, that's because it is my opinion that what has been said is only worthy of dismissal, and I give every reason for being so.

Quote
and saying you've already the covered the issue when you haven't.

Oh? Then perhaps it was a different hackenslash who said:

Quote
Where we have hard evidence from reality, belief is superfluous. Where we don't have hard evidence from reality, belief is ridiculous. Either way, it is entirely without utility, and it really does fascinate me that people think it has value.

That covers it nicely, thanks.

Quote
 But I'm asking you to answer my question for intellectual reasons, not personal ones.

I have answered the question.

Quote
It seems to me, and I believe, that maintaining a philosophical position that "I don't believe anything" is incredibly difficult to do, and bound to break down within one or two replies.

We'll see. The tiing is, belief is such a broadly applicable word that it applies to a massive range of concepts, almost all of which have better words to describe the degree. In that light, belief itself becomes nebulous and without utility. What some may call 'justified true belief', I call 'knowledge'. There is that which I know, there is that which I don't know, and there is that which I accept as the best current model that fits the data. That covers pretty much all the ground excpe the utterly useless area concerning things that I simply assert as true with no good reason for doing so. This is the only area of belief not covered in the above, and it is an area I have absolutely no use for. Thus, the entire construct of belief has zero utility, and I don't do it.

Many have tried and failed dismally to break this argument down, including some really keen minds, but you're welcome to try. I promise you that this isn't merely some glib statement. I literally do not do belief.

Quote
 I admire the attempt.  But here is my question and I'd be really appreciative if you'd answer.  Aren't you just not using the word 'belief' but still using the concept of 'belief' by substituting words like 'it seems to me'?

Nope. Phrases like 'it seems to me' are merely linguistic devices. Read above.
Dogma is the death of the intellect - hackenslash

No man is more hopelessly enslaved than one who falsely believes he's free - Goethe

If I showed your preposterous beliefs the respect you think they deserve, I wouldn't be showing you the respect you deserve - hackenslash


Existentialist

  • Doesn't Believe in Mother Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 166
Re: Atheism
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2011, 11:50:48 PM »
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
My parents raised me in a secular home, there was no mention of religion.

Children tend to believe what their parents believe.  What are your reasons as an adult for deciding that logic, reason and rational thinking are the best ways to come to a conclusion about anything?

LegendarySandwich

  • Kickin' Back With d'Holbach
  • ****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Trying to be a freethinker
Re: Atheism
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 11:59:04 PM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
My parents raised me in a secular home, there was no mention of religion.

Children tend to believe what their parents believe.  What are your reasons as an adult for deciding that logic, reason and rational thinking are the best ways to come to a conclusion about anything?
This is starting to sound like an Achronos argument. The statement that logic, reason and rational thinking are correct is an axiom. It is completely and utterly necessary. Without it, we wouldn't be able to do anything.

Ultima22689

  • Has Actually Read the Bible!
  • **
  • Posts: 612
Re: Atheism
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2011, 12:03:08 AM »
Quote from: "Existentialist"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
My parents raised me in a secular home, there was no mention of religion.

Children tend to believe what their parents believe.  What are your reasons as an adult for deciding that logic, reason and rational thinking are the best ways to come to a conclusion about anything?

My parents are actually christian, they decided to let us choose for ourselves. As for my reason, I don't understand the question, I came to logic because logic dictated so, it's how I think, literally, don't know a better way to explain that.

Kylyssa

  • Pretty Sure the Black Cat Isn't in the Dark Room
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
    • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/Kylyssa
Re: Atheism
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2011, 12:13:49 AM »
I decided to base my life on reality.  Are you
Quote from: "Existentialist"
Quote from: "Ultima22689"
My parents raised me in a secular home, there was no mention of religion.

Children tend to believe what their parents believe.  What are your reasons as an adult for deciding that logic, reason and rational thinking are the best ways to come to a conclusion about anything?

Reason and rational thinking are the best ways to come to a conclusion about anything because they produce consistent results.  The common practice of relying on wishful thinking does not work for me.  If I act on reality rather than what I wish were the case, I stand a significantly higher chance of having a satisfying outcome.

What logical reason is there to choose fantasy and wishful thinking over reality?