Author Topic: neither free will nor predestination exist.  (Read 1267 times)

Mastriani

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« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2007, 03:23:58 AM »
No, actually, I have a career, a life, and a family, added to first quarter release development, and it doesn't always allow me time for trivialities such as forum discussions.

McQ, your pathetically inane prattle isn't worth the effort.  If you had any credibility as an intellect, you would have gone looking for information on your own.

It is good to be of Sicilian ancestry, you Americans are a sad and pathetic ilk.  Maundering about the internet, so much belief in your own ego bound delusions, expecting everyone to do for you, what you obviously haven't the sense or ability to do for yourself.

Learn something for a change, mirror neurons infer action.

Cellular level communication networking

Further research developments in cellular tektins

P.S.  Don't bother to deny your mental lassitude.  Your oblivious response regarding hominid, pronounces clearly your level of acumen regarding literacy, comprehension, and vocabulary.  "bipedalism and large brain" with respect to higher primates ... hominid.  Although, the commentary regarding need of taxonomical adjustments is likely correct, in light of the current abject discourse.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 03:54:36 AM by Mastriani »
Praedatorious culminis; hominis necis


Big Mac

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« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2007, 03:46:44 AM »
Yet you are still here talking shit on this forum. Some life you have there, you didn't realize that everything you just described about us (by the way, we have British and Canadians among others here) is really just a projection of yourself.

With all those big words, you still are on this forum and posting. And we "sad and pathetic ilk" saved your asses from Facism, so feel free to bitch away bub. A lot of country boys with rifles died saving you from Il Duce and his like. You're welcome, you pompous cockmaster.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
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McQ

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« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2007, 03:58:28 AM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"
No, actually, I have a career, a life, and a family, added to first quarter release development, and it doesn't always allow me time for trivialities such as forum discussions.

McQ, your pathetically inane prattle isn't worth the effort.  If you had any credibility as an intellect, you would have gone looking for information on your own.

It is good to be of Sicilian ancestry, you Americans are a sad and pathetic ilk.  Maundering about the internet, so much belief in your own ego bound delusions, expecting everyone to do for you, what you obviously haven't the sense or ability to do for yourself.

Learn something for a change.


Wow, that's the best laugh I've had in a while, Mastriani. Thank you! Do you even understand what that study says? It has nothing to do with your assertion that we have no free will.

And what about that humorous sentence about me looking for information on my own? It's not up to me to do your homework for you. You made the claim. Back it up. I already know what mirror neurons are and I'm familiar with the research. That's why I called you on your claim that they prove we don't have free will.

So, feel free to do your own homework and back up your claim. I already did mine.

It must be tough to be you, huh? Surrounded by lesser hominids, always having to explain everything in simple terms. Here's a present for you. I'll give you and everyone else an idea of who you are with this link:

http://allpsych.com/disorders/personali ... ssism.html

But it is nice to see you demonstrate the very thing you deride, choosing to go for the ad hominem attacks instead of sticking to the subject at hand.

I look forward to your next stunning comeback. In the meantime, good luck finding the studies to support your claim of mirror neurons proving that humans don't have free will. We will wait patiently for those from you.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by McQ »
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McQ

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« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2007, 04:08:54 AM »
Isn't it interesting that Mastriani, who has a life, career, family, etc...blah-blah-blah....has the time to post verbose bullshit here, but not the time to post evidence to back up his claims?

Additionally, he fails to see or note that I agreed with most of what he said early on, and chose to act insulted, offended, and whine about the one thing on which I disagreed?

Instead of taking a few deep breaths and trying to realize the common ground, he simply attacks as if he was a wounded animal. As I recall, I was quite polite in suggesting that he try to discuss this topic without the sarcasm and condescension.

Interesting.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by McQ »
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Mastriani

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« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2007, 04:12:04 AM »
LMAO, McQ, you didn't even have the time to read that study, it was just posted, and there is more beyond the abstract.

Mirror neurons categorically record for memory, sensory input directly relating to environmental interaction, then they also infer what other plausible actions are relevant.  Using what is in evidence all throughout nature, out of the "choices" given, you will be autonomously routed to the "path of least resistance".  Effectively, you have been told what is the best option to take, so choice is eliminated.

Your assertion about what you "know", is summarily rebuked.  As far as the ad hominem, you and donkey initiated and I granted you your wanted retaliation.  Again, rebuked.  For the fourth time, none here have provided an iota of information as rebuttle to anything stated by myself, but instead proffered unsupported, non-factual opines, and it matters not.

Conclusively, a pack of monkeys humping a greased football.  

Abyssus abyssum invocat
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Mastriani »
Praedatorious culminis; hominis necis


McQ

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« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2007, 04:33:41 AM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"
LMAO, McQ, you didn't even have the time to read that study, it was just posted, and there is more beyond the abstract.

Mirror neurons categorically record for memory, sensory input directly relating to environmental interaction, then they also infer what other plausible actions are relevant.  Using what is in evidence all throughout nature, out of the "choices" given, you will be autonomously routed to the "path of least resistance".  Effectively, you have been told what is the best option to take, so choice is eliminated.

Your assertion about what you "know", is summarily rebuked.  As far as the ad hominem, you and donkey initiated and I granted you your wanted retaliation.  Again, rebuked.  For the fourth time, none here have provided an iota of information as rebuttle to anything stated by myself, but instead proffered unsupported, non-factual opines, and it matters not.

Conclusively, a pack of monkeys humping a greased football.  

Abyssus abyssum invocat


Keep trying. You have yourself convinced at least. We'll just sit back and wait for your evidence. Yawn.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by McQ »
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donkeyhoty

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« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2007, 06:08:15 AM »
Quote from: "Master Debater"
Your assertion about what you "know", is summarily rebuked.
Ditto.

Quote from: "Master Debater"
For the fourth time, none here have provided an iota of information as rebuttle to anything stated by myself, but instead proffered unsupported, non-factual opines, and it matters not.
 Did you read the many papers posted on the link I provided?  Of course you didn't.  Here it is again:  http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm

Quote from: "Master Debater also"
Effectively, you have been told what is the best option to take, so choice is eliminated.
 An option is a choice.  You can also choose to take a path that is not of least resistance.  Have you ever seen the Navy SEAL training shows on the Military/History channel?  Nothing that they do would ever be considered a path of least resistance.  The whole idea is to overcome ingrained notions of self-interest.  An excercise in free will, but certainly not proof of free will.

Your evidence does not prove that there is no free will, but you fail to realize it.  Once again, it only adds weight, and not much, to your proposition.  
Quote from: "Second study"
Experimentally determining the importance of cellular extensions within a whole animal remains a challenge and understanding the interplay between physical forces and signaling within such extensions even more so. Genetic and molecular manipulation of extension formation (for example, perturbing the actin cytoskeleton), is likely to affect other cellular processes as well. Untangling the effects on extensions from other effects will be difficult. Some help may be at hand with the emergence of imaging techniques for following individual cells and their extensions in live embryos. These new techniques may be especially powerful when coupled with other manipulations. In some systems, it may be possible to physically ablate, block, or misdirect individual extensions and follow the effects of these manipulations on sending and receiving cells. It may also be useful to tag and follow “touched” cells and compare their subsequent behavior with that of neighboring “untouched” cells. Of course, imaging approaches are still limited both in terms of spatial resolution and speed. Ideally, we would like to ascribe specific functions to specific extensions. This is likely to present a challenge for quite some time to come.
 Not proof of anything regarding free will.

Quote from: "First study"
The conventional view on intention understanding is that the description of an action and the interpretation of the reason why that action is executed rely on largely different mechanisms. In contrast, the present data show that the intentions behind the actions of others can be recognized by the motor system using a mirror mechanism. Mirror neurons are thought to recognize the actions of others, by matching the observed action onto its motor counterpart coded by the same neurons. The present findings strongly suggest that coding the intention associated with the actions of others is based on the activation of a neuronal chain formed by mirror neurons coding the observed motor act and by “logically related” mirror neurons coding the motor acts that are most likely to follow the observed one, in a given context. To ascribe an intention is to infer a forthcoming new goal, and this is an operation that the motor system does automatically.
 Once again, no proof of anything regarding free will.  Recognizing how someone picks up a mug, and having no choice in how you pick up a mug are not the same thing.
 
I will say, yet again, there is nothing that will prove or disprove free will save the understanding of the entire universe.  
Whether you like it or not, free will v. determinism is a heavily metaphysical debate.  If you are unprepared or unable to discuss things of a metaphysical nature(and Masty, you definitely are) then you shouldn't bother.

And here's the obligatory ad hominem for you,
Quote from: "Master Debater"
Again, there is no certainty that the flat tire is not a ruse for an alterior motive or agenda.
 Quite the cunning linquist, aren't we?  Alterior is not a word, never has been, never will be.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by donkeyhoty »
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McQ

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« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2007, 12:46:31 PM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"
LMAO, McQ, you didn't even have the time to read that study, it was just posted, and there is more beyond the abstract.


How would you know how fast I read, dipstick? Reading clinical studies is what I do every day as part of my job. I also explain them, teach them, and review them. If you weren't such a horse's ass you'd realize that there are other educated people here. But then, that's part of your personality disorder, so we can't expect much of you in that regard.

You are nothing more than a troll with a propped up vocabulary, slathered with an ego, surrounded by delusions of persecution.

I can waste no more time with you, as I too have a life, family, and career. But I do love a good meltdown, so would you do me the favor and please continue?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by McQ »
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Mastriani

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« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2007, 03:47:27 PM »
LMMFAOROTFL ... For the first time McQ, you are right about something.

Any further discourse with you, or anyone of that ilk, is decisively unproductive.  Philosophy/philosophers are nothing more than a pack of monkeys humping a greased football.  The hominid mind, like all others, is nothing but a chain of biochemical mechanisms, (physical action), too overly dependent upon historicity and imagination.  Free will is the same lie as the interstellar teapot, but say hello to both of them for me.  LMMFAO!!!

Don't bother to reply, I'll look for more rational atheists, elsewhere.  

Qui deciderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

P.S.  Ability to manipulate language is the highest empirically regarded cursory ability for defining intellectual acuity.  But don't let that stop you ... LMMFAO.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Mastriani »
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McQ

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« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2007, 05:31:12 PM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"
LMMFAOROTFL ... For the first time McQ, you are right about something.

Any further discourse with you, or anyone of that ilk, is decisively unproductive.  Philosophy/philosophers are nothing more than a pack of monkeys humping a greased football.  The hominid mind, like all others, is nothing but a chain of biochemical mechanisms, (physical action), too overly dependent upon historicity and imagination.  Free will is the same lie as the interstellar teapot, but say hello to both of them for me.  LMMFAO!!!

Don't bother to reply, I'll look for more rational atheists, elsewhere.  

Qui deciderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

P.S.  Ability to manipulate language is the highest empirically regarded cursory ability for defining intellectual acuity.  But don't let that stop you ... LMMFAO.


And I agree with you in a way, Mastriani. Philosophers can go round and round on this and never agree, which is why, as a Biologist working in Hematology and Oncology, I depend on solid clinical studies to further any information about the brain. That's why I'm still waiting to see if you can produce such a study that concludes humans do not have free will based on mirror neurons.

But feel free to keep dodging it, and re-using the same cliches about humping footballs. This too, is enjoyable, although I'm not sure how long the admins will accept your trollish behavior and megalomania.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by McQ »
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Whitney

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« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2007, 08:24:10 PM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"
Don't bother to reply, I'll look for more rational atheists, elsewhere.


Good luck finding a place where people will agree with everything you say.  Really, if that's what you are looking for you should become an evangelist and only participate on CARM.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Whitney »

Kestrel

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« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2007, 09:05:06 PM »
Quote from: "Mastriani"


Don't bother to reply, I'll look for more rational atheists, elsewhere.  

 

You can't.



Remember; you don't have free will, mate.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Kestrel »
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donkeyhoty

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« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2007, 09:55:40 PM »
How does a monkey hump a football?  In the sense that,
Quote from: "Master Debater"
Everything in environmental instance must be qualitatively assessed for fitness. Example: you are hungry, you go to the fridge, pick up a food item, it has an awful smell : you don't eat it because you are suddenly overwhelmed by a sensation of nauseum. Was it your "decision" not to eat it?

Summarily, no. It did not pass the valuation of fitness for comsumption because genetically we are inclined to test our environment, just as a caution, as it aids our ability to survive for ensuring procreation. The food item in the example, has a negative valuation, as the smell is associated with something in historical information from genetics signaling danger.

Although in the hominid sphere, the inclusion of linguistics appears to cloud the issue, it only adds complexity. The end result is the same. We valuate for fitness, not as a choice, but as a matter of genetic history and survivability. Hence, you do not ingest the food item, as your body recalls that nauseum prevents anything from going into the piehole.
 Why bang a football when it would be assessed a negative valuation, considering there is no hole to put your junk in?  Unless, of course, you had a choice in the matter.  
Also, regarding Masty's immense linguistic ability, the usage of nauseum is wrong.  It should be nausea.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by donkeyhoty »
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Big Mac

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« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2007, 10:58:54 PM »
Writing stuff in Latin doesn't make you seem like a unique intellectual. You are still posting here after talking about leaving. The door (the cyber one) is right over there, don't hit your ass on the way out. We'd prefer if you ran into a knife instead.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Big Mac »
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BGMA

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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2007, 04:57:16 AM »
Quote from: "Sir_Nuttingham"
Quote from: "BGMA"
Here's a rough view of "scientific" determinism vs. free will that I heard somewhere on the net:

Picture a worm in the dirt near a sidewalk.  Pour a lot of water around.  The worm will crawl to the sidewalk.  Let it dry.  The worm will crawl back toward the dirt.  All worms will likely do the same, with very little variation.  A worm has almost no free will.

Picture a squirrel.  Pen the squirrel in a yard with a tree and some food and a dog on a leash.  The squirrel will take the food or climb the tree or test the limits of the dog.  There might be a little variation, but not much, from squirrel to squirrel.  A squirrel's brain is more complex than that of a worm, and the squirrel has many more options of action to choose from, but still not many.  A squirrel only has a little free will.

Picture a person, confronted with another person.  Now you have someone with hundreds of options of how to react to every single situation.  Some of those options are very unpredictable.  The threshhold necessary for a person to change from one choice of action to another is very small, possibly in some cases so small that quantum differences in the actions of atoms in the brain could push a person from one decision to another.

Additionally, a person is extremely sensitive to their surroundings, such that infinitesimally small differences in the surroundings can lead to major changes in course of action.  Finally, much of a person's actions happen after hundreds of complicated feedback loops within the brain, all of which can give rise to many different courses of action.  If I hit your knee in the right spot, you will kick, a non-free-will action.  But if I call you a jerk, you can laugh or call me a name or grimace or walk away or hit me or act confused or quietly seethe, and all of those actions can happen in a hundred different ways.  People have a lot of free will.


I don't think this proves that humans have a higher level of free will than worms and squirrels nor that it proves that humans have free will at all. It just shows that in contrary to worms, humans have experience and memory to define their most logical next act. Worms don't have memory, therefor they will only act using instinct and their senses, where as I stated, humans have experience and memory as cumulative factors. A squirrel problaby has a little more reliability on experience and memory, but not the wide range that humans have.


Well, what it does show is that human reactions are *extremely* sensitive to initial starting conditions.  So sensitive, in fact, that I would posit that quantum effects in the brain can ultimately have macro-level effects on human actions, unlike with worms or squirrels.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by BGMA »